Is there only one trinity doctrine or are there many?

[2timothy316]

Trinitarians are not one group.

Is this true? Are there different groups of trinitarians that all have different trinity doctrines?

[Eloi]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #47]
[Replying to Eloi in post #48]

As I already noted above, if you have general questions about the Trinity, you should start a new thread asking those questions.

I don't think that is something for you to decide, since the only thing you have done here is telling what is the ortodox way to consider the trinity according to Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica (which I didn't check cause I don't have time for it,but I'll take your word for it).

Anyway, that is not the whole response to the topic, since this is about how many diferent versions of the trinity there are there outside ... no matter if they are the ortodox view or not.

You don't have to answer the questions, though ... that is something that you can decide.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #47]
[Replying to Eloi in post #48]

As I already noted above, if you have general questions about the Trinity, you should start a new thread asking those questions.

What 'general questions' should we ask?

You keep kicking the can down the road. When will you stop?

How about you make a new thread and tell us all what the trinity is. Then we question what you post.

Now that I think about it, after many years on this forum no one has ever made a thread that declared what the trinity is. Or do us non-trinitairans need to do this for you? So that you can say its wrong, yet never explain it yourself. We are on to your tricks.

[historia]

Some Christians have historically put forward different ideas as to the nature and relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Calling all of such views "trinitarian" is confusing, since many of the proponents of those ideas don't describe their view using that term.

Some evidence, please

Sure. So, as bjs noted above, the vast majority of churches hold to the doctrine of the Trinity. But there are a number of marginal Christian sects today that hold to alternative views:

Oneness Pentecostals, for example, are essentially Sabellianists, or modalists, believing God is one person who appears at different times as Father or Son or Holy Spirit.

Mormons, at the other end of the spectrum, believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate divine beings, and there may be millions of such beings.

Some Adventists have historically adopted non-trinitarian views: Jehovah's Witnesses and (more so histoircally than presently) some sabbath-keeping Adventists have followed an Arian Christology. Christadelphians and similar Adventist groups, by contrast, hold to a Socinian Christology, believing that Jesus had no pre-existence.

Importantly for the purposes of the OP, none of these groups, as evidenced by the links above, call themselves "trinitarians" or call their view of God "the Trinity," and, in fact, expressly set their view of God over against the doctrine of the Trinity.

[historia]

What 'general questions' should we ask?

That's up to you. But you started to assemble a set of questions in post #47.

Now that I think about it, after many years on this forum no one has ever made a thread that declared what the trinity is. Or do us non-trinitairans need to do this for you? So that you can say its wrong, yet never explain it yourself. We are on to your tricks.

You seem confused here. I'm simply asking you to pose your questions in a separate thread, not to define anything.

The rules of the forum encourage participants to start new threads when they have tangential questions or topics they wish to discuss:

4. Stay on the topic of debate. If a topic brings up another issue, start another thread.

[Eloi]

Some Christians have historically put forward different ideas as to the nature and relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Calling all of such views "trinitarian" is confusing, since many of the proponents of those ideas don't describe their view using that term.

Some evidence, please

Sure. So, as bjs noted above, the vast majority of churches hold to the doctrine of the Trinity. But there are a number of marginal Christian sects today that hold to alternative views:

Oneness Pentecostals, for example, are essentially Sabellianists, or modalists, believing God is one person who appears at different times as Father or Son or Holy Spirit.

Mormons, at the other end of the spectrum, believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate divine beings, and there may be millions of such beings.

Some Adventists have historically adopted non-trinitarian views: Jehovah's Witnesses and (more so histoircally than presently) some sabbath-keeping Adventists have followed an Arian Christology. Christadelphians and similar Adventist groups, by contrast, hold to a Socinian Christology, believing that Jesus had no pre-existence.

Importantly for the purposes of the OP, none of these groups, as evidenced by the links above, call themselves "trinitarians" or call their view of God "the Trinity," and, in fact, expressly set their view of God over against the doctrine of the Trinity.

Nobody have said that mormons are trinitarians. There are thousand of groups in the Christendom who consider themselves trinitarians without adopting the "ortodox" Trinity ... and you come here to talk about non-trinitarian groups. Nothing new.

Penthecostals, for example, consider themselves trinitarians, not matter the critique you or your theologians may do about their "trinity". They recognize officially not to believe in the traditional concept of the trinity, but being trinitarians. You need to inform yourself better.

PS: in the ortodox view of the trinity, not only each of the members is considered to be God and the three considered one God at the same time (incomprehensible and illogical belief) , BUT they say all of the three are coequals, coeternal and consubstantial ... among other things. Curiously, I don't see you mentioning those details when talking about the "three in one", and you are pretending that all the diferent variants of those details don't even exist, but those are the ones we are referring here. There is not any trinity that is a universal belief in "trinitarians", as some may say. Actually, it is very common that some trintiarians call other trinitarians heretic because of their understanding of the trinity.

Who can be able to delucidate who is heretic without knowing what the Bible really teaches?

[historia]

There are thousand of groups in the Christendom who consider themselves trinitarians without adopting the "ortodox" Trinity

What groups? You've been asked this question multiple times and have provided no answer.

Penthecostals, for example, consider themselves trinitarians

Yes, Pentecostals generally are trinitarian. But the specific subset of Pentecostals I mentioned, Oneness Pentecostals, are not.

You need to inform yourself better.

No, you need to read more carefully.

they say all of the three are coequals, coeternal and consubstantial ... among other things. Curiously, I don't see you mentioning those details when talking about the "three in one"

Well, yeah, there are lots of details to the Trinity, which is why I linked to the Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica articles, where those details are mentioned.

[Eloi]

I can not talk about groups because my ministry is not to groups, but to families and individuals. Only in the field you know certain things, not in Wikipedia.

[bjs1]

I can not talk about groups because my ministry is not to groups, but to families and individuals. Only in the field you know certain things, not in Wikipedia.

This suggests that you are building your reasoning on the fallacy of anecdotal evidence.
https://mlelawfirm.com/blog/anecdotal-v ... al%20cases.

That is, you have found individuals who have spent minimal time thinking about theology and are therefor less capable of explaining a complex doctrine like the Trinity. Instead of taking a wholistic view of the person, including the beliefs they adhere to as part of Christian community, you have used their confusion to misrepresent their beliefs.

I would compare this to saying that if someone cannot concisely explain Isaac Newton’s theory on harmonic motion, then that person doesn’t believe in gravity.

Such hasty generalizations are both inaccurate and uncharitable.

[Eloi]

I can not talk about groups because my ministry is not to groups, but to families and individuals. Only in the field you know certain things, not in Wikipedia.

This suggests that you are building your reasoning on the fallacy of anecdotal evidence.
https://mlelawfirm.com/blog/anecdotal-v ... al%20cases.

That is, you have found individuals who have spent minimal time thinking about theology and are therefor less capable of explaining a complex doctrine like the Trinity. Instead of taking a wholistic view of the person, including the beliefs they adhere to as part of Christian community, you have used their confusion to misrepresent their beliefs.

I would compare this to saying that if someone cannot concisely explain Isaac Newton’s theory on harmonic motion, then that person doesn’t believe in gravity.

Such hasty generalizations are both inaccurate and uncharitable.

People don't need theology to worship God. What they need is a good Bible study with a Jehovah's witness.

In the field we find many people who do not believe in the trinity even if their religious leaders want they to believe on that. When they start studying the Bible, they came to know that what theologians say are just manmade doctrines but not what the Bible really teaches.

We're doing an excellent job to collaborate with the true God and His kingdom.

Did you know that even if Isaac Newton was Protestant, HE WAS NOT trinitarian?

[bjs1]

I can not talk about groups because my ministry is not to groups, but to families and individuals. Only in the field you know certain things, not in Wikipedia.

This suggests that you are building your reasoning on the fallacy of anecdotal evidence.
https://mlelawfirm.com/blog/anecdotal-v ... al%20cases.

That is, you have found individuals who have spent minimal time thinking about theology and are therefor less capable of explaining a complex doctrine like the Trinity. Instead of taking a wholistic view of the person, including the beliefs they adhere to as part of Christian community, you have used their confusion to misrepresent their beliefs.

I would compare this to saying that if someone cannot concisely explain Isaac Newton’s theory on harmonic motion, then that person doesn’t believe in gravity.

Such hasty generalizations are both inaccurate and uncharitable.

People don't need theology to worship God. What they need is a good Bible study with a Jehovah's witness.

“People don’t need theology to worship God; they need MY theology.”

Forgive me if I am not fond of that approach to life.

In the field we find many people who do not believe in the trinity even if their religious leaders want they to believe on that. When they start studying the Bible, they came to know that what theologians say are just manmade doctrines but not what the Bible really teaches.

We all have field experience. I try not to let my own anecdotal experience with Jehovah’s Witnesses color my view of the movement overall.

Did you know that even if Isaac Newton was Protestant, HE WAS NOT trinitarian?

Yes. Also, doesn’t this go against the point you were making? Newton didn’t hold a different view of the trinity. He rejected the trinity outright. He recognized that there is one view of the Trinity that is common among virtually all Christians.