Motivation for Belief

[Diogenes]

On this forum we frequently see claims that "atheists hate God" or otherwise have some kind of self interest in their lack of belief. We hear things like 'There are no atheists in foxholes' and many similar claims that describe personal motivations for belief or lack of belief.

Four years ago I lost my best friend to cancer, 'a man of infinite wit.' R______ was a friend, perhaps the only friend I could share certain personal thoughts and types of humor with. He made me laugh. We brought out the creative best in each other. I would dearly love to know there is a heaven where we would be reunited.

More recently I lost a close relative [not ready to disclose]. His death at age 48 seems impossible. I understand now why a first reaction to a loved one's death is denial. Our memories are so vivid, so real, the death seems wrong... unbelievable. My reaction, anyone's reaction, is to want to reverse that death or to see that person again, to see them in heaven. You get together with other loved ones and, over and over you all say, "I wish D_____ could be here (or be in heaven) to see how loved he was... deeply loved."

The atheist, the naturalist, the nonbeliever loves his friends, his children, his wife as much as anyone else does. When that person is lost in death, the last thing anyone wants to believe is that they are irrevocably gone, gone forever. I submit that the naturalist, atheist, nonbeliever wants desperately to believe he will be reunited, that the one lost will be returned or at least that they know how much they are loved.

The question for debate is: What motives or self interest are involved in either following a religious belief or in not believing in a god or in the supernatural?

[TRANSPONDER]

Since this is going to be said, I'll say it first - the OPis expected to be framed as a question for discussion. Can you frame your point so it is put as a question? Like for instance, "Why does the unbeliever refuse the instinct to believe in a soul, God and afterlife when they come face to face with the reality of death?"

[Miles]

On this forum we frequently see claims that "atheists hate God" or otherwise have some kind of self interest in their lack of belief. We hear things like 'There are no atheists in foxholes' and many similar claims that describe personal motivations for belief or lack of belief.

Four years ago I lost my best friend to cancer, 'a man of infinite wit.' R______ was a friend, perhaps the only friend I could share certain personal thoughts and types of humor with. He made me laugh. We brought out the creative best in each other. I would dearly love to know there is a heaven where we would be reunited.

More recently I lost a close relative [not ready to disclose]. His death at age 48 seems impossible. I understand now why a first reaction to a loved one's death is denial. Our memories are so vivid, so real, the death seems wrong... unbelievable. My reaction, anyone's reaction, is to want to reverse that death or to see that person again, to see them in heaven. You get together with other loved ones and, over and over you all say, "I wish D_____ could be here (or be in heaven) to see how loved he was... deeply loved."

The atheist, the naturalist, the nonbeliever loves his friends, his children, his wife as much as anyone else does. When that person is lost in death, the last thing anyone wants to believe is that they are irrevocably gone, gone forever. I submit that the naturalist, atheist, nonbeliever wants desperately to believe he will be reunited, that the one lost will be returned or at least that they know how much they are loved.

I strongly suggest that projection has overtaken your ability to fairly judge others. Might want to reconsider this noxious tendency.

The 'unbeliever' has strong motive to believe in God, to believe in heaven.

Obviously you're incapable of putting yourself in the shoes of others without bringing along your own predispositions. My sympathy for your lack of unbiased insight.

I suggest there is no motive for unbelief; the only motivebeing respect for truth and reality.

And I suggest the motivating factor is a respect for reason and logic, while holding faith in contempt and recognizing self deception wherever it pops up.

.

[otseng]

I strongly suggest that projection has overtaken your ability to fairly judge others. Might want to reconsider this noxious tendency.

Moderator Comment

Though the thread is tempting to judge another forum member, please discuss it without making personal comments.

Please review the Rules.





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[otseng]

The question for debate is: What motives or self interest are involved in either following a religious belief or in not believing in a god or in the supernatural?

"Why does the unbeliever refuse the instinct to believe in a soul, God and afterlife when they come face to face with the reality of death?"

All excellent questions. I believe a major component in rejecting Christianity are emotional reasons, like Diogenes illustrated.

Gary Habermas discusses about emotional doubt in:

[Difflugia]

Since this is going to be said, I'll say it first - the OPis expected to be framed as a question for discussion. Can you frame your point so it is put as a question? Like for instance, "Why does the unbeliever refuse the instinct to believe in a soul, God and afterlife when they come face to face with the reality of death?"

Your suggested question answers itself. Refusal to believe in a soul, gods, and afterlife is to face the reality of death. The alternative is religion.

[Diogenes]

I'll try to express myself better.

Without evidence to the contrary, I assume everyone is honest and thinks well of others. I assume no bad motives for beliefs about religion, the supernatural, or the lack of such beliefs. I see no necessary inherent difference in the qualities or emotions or intellect of those who do not believe in a religion and those who do. In times of great loss such as the loss of a son or daughter, a spouse, a best friend I assume all healthy people go thru a deep process of grief, that they reach out for answers and for comfort; that everyone could take comfort in a belief of life after death, of not being totally separated from the loved one, of a reunion one day.

What I suggest is that the non believer in this circumstance would have a motive for belief in an afterlife and a loving God who will unite and heal. In other words, I can see no mean, selfish, or ulterior motive for unbelief.
[EDIT]
I want to add that a principle reason for my belief there is no afterlife, no matter what religion* one follows, is the clear basis for consciousness is the 100 Trillion connections among our 100 Billion neurons. Who we really are, our personalities, everything important that makes us, us comes from those electrical connections in an organ that needs 20 watts of power** to operate. Death = no wattage and that means no 'us.' I cannot rationally conceive of a way my collection of memories, consciousness, my unconscious, all that is ME, can continue on when my brain has no power and slowly turns to mush so even the restoration of power would do nothing.

_____________________________
*Buddhism may present a special case. In most versions at least, there is no god, no theology, no afterlife. I think of Buddhism more as a meditative art than a religion, at least the forms I have practiced or studied. Perhaps in this or in another thread someone can give counter evidence.

** https://www.munichre.com/topics-online/ ... -beck.html

[TRANSPONDER]

I agree. i have been musing on afterlife claims for a long time. It wasn't too long ago that an afterlife was discussed on a former board. One that would suit atheists, and memejokes about a poledancing bar with a Pizza counter aside, I was thinking of a custom - made afterlife where all my needs were satisfied: mainly (but not entirely ) those of curiosity. But even then, there were doubts about doing it forever. One theists argued that one could endure even a bespoke heaven forever one day at a time, a we do here. But the nagging idea was that it would be handy to have an oblivion - clause when frankly existence became a bore. Just in case.

Clearly what was needed was not only a custom made afterlife but a custom -made god. Believers, one who did for others as they would do for themselves, not unto others what He expected from them, all jokes about harps and praises for the next hundred billion years aide; and, unbelievers, since we didn't believe in any one god, religion or Holy book anyway, the idea of a celestial book club you could leave whenever you liked made for a manmade bespoke afterlife you could give up whenever you liked seemed a better option than eternal grovelling before God's throne with no escape.

Goddless Darwinists, we already understand this world is not made to suit us; why should a heaven not the property and kingdom of any particular god be any different? What would a natural afterlife be like? Why would there need to be god there at all? The idea of 'the atheist afterlife' eliminated helthreat as absurd, any particular religion not having exclusive ticketing rights, and frankly the self - serving afterlife claims of the various man - made religions absurd.

Many of the theists had already juggled with the idea of a heaven where they had to deal with all their fellows burning and only a few rejoiced in the idea of being able to lean over the golden balustrade and watch the atheists burn forever.. along with the wrong believers...and everyone but their own church - members, other than the ones they hated. Most were more bothered by the vision (they are good people, deep down) and opted for a heaven where all the human failings were burned out of them so they could bob about in bliss like a bunch of helium - balloons and not care that atheists were burning forever.

But it was obvious that such a person had ceased to exist even as a ball of gas was in an eternal bliss that it didn't appreciate anyway. The realisation stole over, we, the goddless, that the only credible afterlife was no afterlife. It was a bit of a hoot for me as a cultural Buddhist (married into it) as there were these dudes tying their legs in knots and wasting their lives in humming "Aum" all day when the 'Nirvana' they were after (extinction without rebirth) was what the atheist afterlife offered for free (1).

So, having thought through why this heathen does not believe in or need an afterlife, nor fear death nor hellthreat (instinct apart, which is powerful), the OP point comes up as to why the believers do and need one. Is it fear of death? Is it fear of Hell? Is it the carrot rather than the stick and the promise of an afterlife that appeals to them? Is it (and I rather think it is) simply because that's the doctrine, and adherence to the doctrine keeps their membership card topped up and gives them a place, certainty and meaning in this life and (they hope) the next? I'm still waiting for a Theist to explain Why, if they can even think honestly about it.

Cue "I just love Jesusgod and that's the end of it".

(1) I put the point to a couple of Buddhist spokesbods and all I got was faithclaim - quotes from the Holy Book. It's never about thinking it through, but about propping up the Belief - club and you may take it from me that it obtains in any religion or alternative science - cult.

[TRANSPONDER]

I'll try to express myself better.

Without evidence to the contrary, I assume everyone is honest and thinks well of others. I assume no bad motives for beliefs about religion, the supernatural, or the lack of such beliefs. I see no necessary inherent difference in the qualities or emotions or intellect of those who do not believe in a religion and those who do. In times of great loss such as the loss of a son or daughter, a spouse, a best friend I assume all healthy people go thru a deep process of grief, that they reach out for answers and for comfort; that everyone could take comfort in a belief of life after death, of not being totally separated from the loved one, of a reunion one day.

What I suggest is that the non believer in this circumstance would have a motive for belief in an afterlife and a loving God who will unite and heal. In other words, I can see no mean, selfish, or ulterior motive for unbelief.

Yes. Prima facie, atheism has nothing to offer in the way of eternal life, answered prayers, meaning in life or even community. So why would they have any reason Not to believe in a religion? Well, I did take the wager, and after looking at all of the religions on offer, opted for Buddhism. That aside, as well as accusations about pride, hate or being willing servants of Satan, from people who have no idea about it, the only reason for an atheist to Not believe in some god, religion and afterlife is because they cannot. Evidence and reason will not allow them to believe in something they can no longer credit. It is Not a choice, though refusing to follow the evidence and opting for Faith IS a choice.

Hold the cries of derision, all ye Faithful, because half of you are on the way there, from those who adapt Genesis to fit the science (or dismiss it as a myth) through cafeteria Christians and UR hellfire rejectors to irreligious theists, Deists and 'Agnostics'.

P.s or possible 'cue'. A few then slip into atheism with or without difficulty. Some irreligious theists ("Agnostics") cling to that residual Godfaith and battle like mad for it. Like just today where I wondered why it was even necessary. I've seen it many times before and I should have thought that they could just share the irreligion with their brethren and sistren and leave a possible some sorta - god as a personal belief. But they have to bash down the atheist. They have to show that atheism is wrong because they cannot disprove 'god' 100%. Why is this such a sticking point for them? Because it is personal for them.

A few days ago I watched a very nice lady react to Bill Burr and George Carlin on religion and, while she had shed a LOT of the religion she'd been taught, she said frankly that her Faith is very important to her.
Why? To cut to the chase, or rather the final handcuffing and reading the rights, I reckon I know. So do they. It gives meaning to their lives. They cannot imagine that atheists can exist without this 'meaning'. We can, as we still have the same 'Jesusgod' in our hearts, or rather our heads. Only we now know it's just our own ego.

Now the Cue: "Why are you trying to destroy my Faith? Why can't you let people believe what they like?" Aside from the frankly dangerous social and political clout this gives religions, 'The truth is important'.

[oldbadger]

The question for debate is: What motives or self interest are involved in either following a religious belief or in not believing in a god or in the supernatural?

I read all your post but this was your question.

Christianity is one of the most selfish religions possible, imo.
A believer will live forever in pleasant conditions and almost everybody else will suffer forever.
The Christian God/s built the whole universe but despite the billions of galaxies holding trillions of stars and the billions of years taken to develop all, only a very few and very recent Christian humans will go to this heaven of theirs.
And they can get redemption for their actions.......just about any actions. Everybody else will endure terrifying tortures.

Sad