Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

[boatsnguitars]

We've often seen Christians defend their lust for killing (either in war, or the death penalty, or when calling to rid the world of gay people, witches, atheists, or simply wanting to nuke Islamic countries), or defending Jesus's promise to come back and start massacring all the unworthy, or defending Yahweh's genocidal rampages.

The conversation is like this:

Atheist: I thought "Thou Shalt Not Kill?" How can you be for this killing?
Christian: No! You stupid moron! The translation is "Thou Shalt Not MURDER", you ignorant twat. What? Are you for murder, you evil, reprobate?!"
Atheist: Well, you have certainly hoisted me by my own petard, fine sir, and I deserve the vicious ridicule you have so un-judgmentally beset upon me!"

But, wait. Murder is a legal term. Murder is defined by the State. In fact, different States (both States in the USA, but also countries).

In some countries it is legal to kill gay people. In some countries Honor Killing is legal.

It would not be murder to kill ones child for embarrassing you in some countries.

Did God not know this when he inspired this line? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "Kill" and simply stop all killing? But that wouldn't satisfy the patriarchy's lust to kill, does it?

Seems to me, this is an obvious case of Christians trying to make the Bible sound better than it is, without noticing it makes it worse.


Thoughts?

[boatsnguitars]

But, hey, you're a pacifist. Great! I applaud you and wish you well in convincing the 99% of other Christians of that.

No, I'm not a pacifist.


ARE JEHOVAHS WITNESSES PACIFISTS


No. A Pacifist believes there is never any justifiable reason to fight. Since Jesus (in his capacity as Michael the Archangel) will lead God's armies in the war of Armageddon, he himself isn't "a pacifist" and neither are Jehovahs Witnesses . That said, JWs take an entirely non-violent position with regards to our relations with others and believe Christians must never do anything to deliberately take a human life. We live peacably with all people and show love even to those that make themselves our enemies.


FURTHER READING Why Don’t Jehovah’s Witnesses Go to War?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... go-to-war/

JW



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CHRISTIANITY , WAR and ...PACIFISM ​

You are full of contradictions. Are you authorized to kill or not? You are against violence, except.
You are against war, but not.

If a person kills your family, are you to love that person, now that they are your enemy? And then kill them?

And, you simply gloss over "oh, if there's a justification!". Really, like if a person believes God told them to kill, or they were offended by something you said?
Who determines the justification? Obviously, the individual based on their reading of the Bible.

The more you defend your beliefs, the stranger and more contradictory they become.

And confusing - which started this whole thing.

Not to mention, I've had many people tell me JW's aren't really Christian, so the best you can do is tell us what you, a single JW, believes.


The fact is, you've compltely contradicted your claim that Christians (assuming you are one) are not authorized by God not kill, then you say, "he himself isn't "a pacifist" and neither are Jehovahs Witnesses".

You are saying:
1. Christians are not authorized to kill
2. Christians are authorized to kill

Get your story straight! God is watching!

[JehovahsWitness]

...I've had many people tell me JW's aren't really Christian...

Jehovah's Witnesses are most certainly really Christians.


FURTHER READING
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... hristians/

To read more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , CHRISTIANITY and ...RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS

[boatsnguitars]

So we conclude:
1. Christians are still authorized to kill, under Divine Law.
2. Divine Law is unknowable because there is no definitive text or answer on who or when people can kill, as opposed to committing murder.
3. This allows for Christians to claim they are killing for God, whether they are or not.
4. The Law is confusing.

[2timothy316]

To take a life is serious and for a Christian today is it only allowed for self-defense. Example: If a person breaks into your house at night then you have the right to make the choice to defend yourself.

This doesn't include killing in defense of one's country. Going into another country and killing others in the name of 'defense' is not allowed. If your country is being invaded by another country, join the defense army is not allowed.

This doesn't mean Christians can't do anything. Even now, many Jehovah's Witnesses are risking their lives to help their fellow worshipers and peaceful people who get caught up in the destruction. Bringing them food and supplies. Or just to get them out of the war zone. We also preach and teach others to not be violent in the first place.

[boatsnguitars]

To take a life is serious and for a Christian today is it only allowed for self-defense. Example: If a person breaks into your house at night then you have the right to make the choice to defend yourself.

This doesn't include killing in defense of one's country. Going into another country and killing others in the name of 'defense' is not allowed. If your country is being invaded by another country, join the defense army is not allowed.

This doesn't mean Christians can't do anything. Even now, many Jehovah's Witnesses are risking their lives to help their fellow worshipers and peaceful people who get caught up in the destruction. Bringing them food and supplies. Or just to get them out of the war zone. We also preach and teach others to not be violent in the first place.

Where does the Bible say your allowed to kill in self defense? If anything, didn't Jesus show that you accept your fate with joy, since it's God's plan for you?

Otherwise, the Bible would read like a Rambo movie, with Jesus fighting his way to Pontius Pilate - in self-defense, of course...

[2timothy316]

To take a life is serious and for a Christian today is it only allowed for self-defense. Example: If a person breaks into your house at night then you have the right to make the choice to defend yourself.

This doesn't include killing in defense of one's country. Going into another country and killing others in the name of 'defense' is not allowed. If your country is being invaded by another country, join the defense army is not allowed.

This doesn't mean Christians can't do anything. Even now, many Jehovah's Witnesses are risking their lives to help their fellow worshipers and peaceful people who get caught up in the destruction. Bringing them food and supplies. Or just to get them out of the war zone. We also preach and teach others to not be violent in the first place.

Where does the Bible say your allowed to kill in self defense? If anything, didn't Jesus show that you accept your fate with joy, since it's God's plan for you?

Otherwise, the Bible would read like a Rambo movie, with Jesus fighting his way to Pontius Pilate - in self-defense, of course...

"If a thief is found in the act of breaking in and he gets struck and dies, there is no bloodguilt for him." - Ex 22:2
If one kills a person in defense then the killer is not guilty of murder.

What Jesus went though was completely different. He was tried in kangaroo court a whole governmental police force was against him. It was also the his will and the will of his Father that he die so that mankind can live.

[JehovahsWitness]

Where does the Bible say your allowed to kill in self defense?

It doesn't ; not for Christians.


The bible principle indicates passively submitting to abuse is not a requirement and a Christian can and should take reasonable measures to protect himself and his family but he should draw the line at deliberately taking a human life and always seek a peaceful resolution where possible.

[2timothy316]

Where does the Bible say your allowed to kill in self defense?

It doesn't ; not for Christians.


The bible principle indicates passively submitting to abuse is not a requirement and a Christian can and should take reasonable measures to protect himself and his family but he should draw the line at deliberately taking a human life and always seek a peaceful resolution where possible.

Correct. Christians do not seek to kill when defending themselves. However, if the attacker is somehow killed in the attack then the person is not liable for that attackers death.
Example: If I am standing on a subway platform and an attacker is trying to push me in front of a train, we struggle and he instead falls in front of the train and is killed then I am guilty of nothing. I am trying to keep myself alive but I'm not trying to kill the attacker either.

[boatsnguitars]

Where does the Bible say your allowed to kill in self defense?

It doesn't ; not for Christians.


The bible principle indicates passively submitting to abuse is not a requirement and a Christian can and should take reasonable measures to protect himself and his family but he should draw the line at deliberately taking a human life and always seek a peaceful resolution where possible.

Correct. Christians do not seek to kill when defending themselves. However, if the attacker is somehow killed in the attack then the person is not liable for that attackers death.
Example: If I am standing on a subway platform and an attacker is trying to push me in front of a train, we struggle and he instead falls in front of the train and is killed then I am guilty of nothing. I am trying to keep myself alive but I'm not trying to kill the attacker either.

You both are simply parroting secular laws. Atheists are not liable, either.

But, you are making an extra claim: You are claiming your god agrees with you. You use the Bible to justify everything you believe as though God claims it too, then you say there is not direct revelation that god speaks to you, so why are you claiming that god doesn't find you liable for the death of another human being - even in self defense?
After all, the Bible was pretty clear:
Matthew 5:40-44 New Century Version (NCV)
If someone wants to sue you in court and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. If someone forces you to go with him one mile, go with him two miles. If a person asks you for something, give it to him.

It appears the Bible is saying, give everything a person asks, and more. After all, aren't you more concerned about your eternal salvation?

Which reminds me. Give me all your clothes and money. Walk to over to me. Seriously. Let's see if you are a true follower of your Jesus.
Jesus gave his life for me, lets see if you'll give me that evil mammon....

[2timothy316]

Where does the Bible say your allowed to kill in self defense?

It doesn't ; not for Christians.


The bible principle indicates passively submitting to abuse is not a requirement and a Christian can and should take reasonable measures to protect himself and his family but he should draw the line at deliberately taking a human life and always seek a peaceful resolution where possible.

Correct. Christians do not seek to kill when defending themselves. However, if the attacker is somehow killed in the attack then the person is not liable for that attackers death.
Example: If I am standing on a subway platform and an attacker is trying to push me in front of a train, we struggle and he instead falls in front of the train and is killed then I am guilty of nothing. I am trying to keep myself alive but I'm not trying to kill the attacker either.

You both are simply parroting secular laws. Atheists are not liable, either.

Where do you think the secular laws came from? Exodus was written in 1512 B.C.E. So it is secular laws that are parroting Biblical laws.

But, you are making an extra claim: You are claiming your god agrees with you. You use the Bible to justify everything you believe as though God claims it too, then you say there is not direct revelation that god speaks to you, so why are you claiming that god doesn't find you liable for the death of another human being - even in self defense?

I trust the Bible to be the Word of God and I don't have to prove the Bible is true in this forum.

After all, the Bible was pretty clear:
Matthew 5:40-44 New Century Version (NCV)
If someone wants to sue you in court and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. If someone forces you to go with him one mile, go with him two miles. If a person asks you for something, give it to him.

It appears the Bible is saying, give everything a person asks, and more. After all, aren't you more concerned about your eternal salvation?

Which reminds me. Give me all your clothes and money. Walk to over to me. Seriously. Let's see if you are a true follower of your Jesus.
Jesus gave his life for me, lets see if you'll give me that evil mammon....

Here is the NWT of that scripture, as you seemed to have left out quite a bit of important information.
"And if a person wants to take you to court and get possession of your inner garment, let him also have your outer garment; and if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one asking you, and do not turn away from one who wants to borrow from you. “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you. Do not say to your neighbor, “Go away; come back later! I will give it to you tomorrow,” If you can give it now." - Matt 5:40-46



Here are some more translations of that scripture.
https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-42.htm

Are you suing me in court?
Are you asking for aid? Compare De 15:7, 8
Are you going to harm me if I don't give you all that I have?
If you wish to borrow from me then let us setup a contract and set the payback date.

I don't have to give anything to someone who just demands something. I also only have to give that which I can afford to give. Proverbs 3:27
I also do not have to give to any indiviudal that I think will use my charity for wicked purposes.

Money is not evil. The love of money is evil. "For the love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things, and by reaching out for this love some have been led astray from the faith and have stabbed themselves all over with many pains." 1 Tim 6:10