Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

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Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

Post #1

Post by boatsnguitars »

We've often seen Christians defend their lust for killing (either in war, or the death penalty, or when calling to rid the world of gay people, witches, atheists, or simply wanting to nuke Islamic countries), or defending Jesus's promise to come back and start massacring all the unworthy, or defending Yahweh's genocidal rampages.

The conversation is like this:

Atheist: I thought "Thou Shalt Not Kill?" How can you be for this killing?
Christian: No! You stupid moron! The translation is "Thou Shalt Not MURDER", you ignorant twat. What? Are you for murder, you evil, reprobate?!"
Atheist: Well, you have certainly hoisted me by my own petard, fine sir, and I deserve the vicious ridicule you have so un-judgmentally beset upon me!"

But, wait. Murder is a legal term. Murder is defined by the State. In fact, different States (both States in the USA, but also countries).

In some countries it is legal to kill gay people. In some countries Honor Killing is legal.

It would not be murder to kill ones child for embarrassing you in some countries.

Did God not know this when he inspired this line? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "Kill" and simply stop all killing? But that wouldn't satisfy the patriarchy's lust to kill, does it?

Seems to me, this is an obvious case of Christians trying to make the Bible sound better than it is, without noticing it makes it worse.


Thoughts?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

Post #11

Post by boatsnguitars »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:37 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:04 am
Right, and my point is "What is Murder?" Unlawful killing?
Yes, that is correct.
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:04 am Murder is a legal term and varies from State to State, Time to Time. Laws change.
True. But in the biblical context it would be killing that violates divine law.


boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:04 amSo, what is this Commandment telling us not to do?

Not to violate divine law.


boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:04 am For example, in some countries it's legal to kill one's daughter for having premarital sex. Or, it's legal to kill gay people.

Is that what Christians want? How are they to make sense of a vague commandment?
Neither are currently approved the case in the biblical context.
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:04 am Is that what Christians want? How are they to make sense of a vague commandment?


The law is not subject to wants and desires. The law is the law (is the law)
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:04 am How are they to make sense of a vague commandment?

Which commandement are you refering to? The biblical commandements were clear enough for the people of Israel to know how to apply them.
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:04 amSo, what is this Commandment telling us not to do? For example, in some countries it's legal to kill one's daughter for having premarital sex. Or, it's legal to kill gay people.

Is that what Christians want? How are they to make sense of a vague commandment?
What is Divine Law? Killing gays and witches? Killing unruly children? You see how this gets confusing really quickly.

You say it's not supported Biblically, but it is. There's a reason killing heathens, gays and witches has been a Christian tradition for millenia. I don't think it's being genuine to ignore the history of blood letting by the Church.


BTW, I don't think you have knowledge of whether the people of Israel knew how to apply the laws. The fact that there were divisions, and eventually Jesus teaching them otherwise shows that they didn't. I really must protest your willful blindness to the facts.

I mean, seriously. Prior to the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, Jews of the Roman province of Judaea were divided into several movements, sometimes warring among themselves: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, and ultimately early Christians.

What was the point of Jesus if not to clarify Divine Law?!

Your claim that they knew how to apply the Commandments is simply false. They still don't know how to do it today, nor do Christians. For goodness sake, at least admit that almost every Church ignores "You shall not make for yourselves any graven image" - perhaps because it's not clear? Will you admit this much?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:41 am
What is Divine Law? Killing gays and witches? Killing unruly children?
Yes.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:37 amNeither are currently approved in the biblical context.
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:41 amYou say it's not supported Biblically...
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:37 amNeither are currently approved in the biblical context.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

Post #13

Post by boatsnguitars »

Are you agreeing that Yahweh, the God of Christians,Muslims, and Mormons does command his followers to kill?
Or are you saying he once did, but changed his mind?

Where did Jesus rescind the Commandments?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

Post #14

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:37 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:04 am
Right, and my point is "What is Murder?" Unlawful killing?
Yes, that is correct.
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:04 am Murder is a legal term and varies from State to State, Time to Time. Laws change.
True. But in the biblical context it would be killing that violates divine law.


boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:04 amSo, what is this Commandment telling us not to do?

Not to violate divine law.

boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:04 am For example, in some countries it's legal to kill one's daughter for having premarital sex. Or, it's legal to kill gay people.
Neither are currently approved in the biblical context.
Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Moreover: I found it interesting that the words "kill" and "murder" in both Deu 5:17 and Exo 20:13 derive from רָצַח (rāṣaḥ) which Strong's Concordance sees translated as: "slayer (16x), murderer (14x), kill (5x), murder (3x), slain (3x), manslayer (2x), killing (1x), slayer (with H310) (1x), slayeth (1x), death (1x)."

And is used in the Bible in the following manner:

I. to murder, slay, kill

A. (Qal) to murder, slay

i. premeditated

ii. accidental

iii. as avenger

iv. slayer (intentional) (participle)

B. (Niphal) to be slain

C. (Piel)

i. to murder, assassinate

ii. murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)

D.(Pual) to be killed


So, we find out that Bible-wise רָצַח can rightfully be used to denote several acts of slaying people.

.

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Re: Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:02 am [Replying to bjs1 in post #4]

Are you not aware of Christians killing people - and justifying it with Bible verses?
Thats sad but there is no bible verse that actually authorises a Christian to kill anyone.

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LOVE, HATE and ...POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

Post #16

Post by boatsnguitars »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:30 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:02 am [Replying to bjs1 in post #4]

Are you not aware of Christians killing people - and justifying it with Bible verses?
Thats sad but there is no bible verse that actually authorises a Christian to kill anyone.

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LOVE, HATE and ...POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT
1. Your meme verse doesn't tell Christians not to kill, murder or slay. It says love them. "God so loved the world..." and God was reported int he OT to have kill millions, either through war, famine or flood. Are you saying that if you Love someone you shouldn't kill them (I agree)? Would you go further to say a Being of Pure Love would never kill or even harm someone (I would say yes, you are going to say something else.)?
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Note: He said he said "....but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Has Heaven and Earth passed? No. Therefore, he may have come to fulfill the law, but he has not yet. Therefore, the OT stands - sadly.
Also, note he mentions judgment from the old law (death), but here he says, it's even worse under him: if you call your brother a fool, you are to be in danger of eternal torture (unless you pay up somehow, I suppose). Sure, it's not killing, but it sounds worse, honestly.

2. Please explain your quote about Love in the context of Yahweh killing the Midianites, killing unborn children, torturing people in Hell (if you believe this), or the other examples of God (The Perfect Loving Being) clearly killing people?

3. Also, doesn't Jesus promise to return to kill off everyone who doesn't follow him? Can you explain your Eschatology?

4. Then explain why Jesus didn't denounce the calls for killing in the Bible but said no law in the OT was to be overturned?

5. Then, explain how this is all clear and not confusing at all. (Please concede that the Jewish were often at odds over the Law).

https://brill.com/display/title/33659
Fighting Over the Bible
Jewish Interpretation, Sectarianism and Polemic from Temple to Talmud and Beyond
Author: Isaac Kalimi

Fighting over the Bible explores the bitter conflicts between main stream Jews and their internal and external opponents, especially between particular Jewish groups such as Pharisees, Sadducees, Qumranites, Samaritans, Rabbanites and Karaites, as well as with Christians and Muslims regarding their interpretations of Jewish Scripture. The Hebrew Bible/Old Testament is an important sacred text for all branches of the Abrahamic faiths, but it has more often divided than unified them. This volume explores and exemplifies the roots of these interpretive conflicts and controversies and traces the rich exegetical and theological approaches that grew out of them. Focusing on the Jewish sources from the late Second Temple period through the high Middle-Ages, it illustrates how the study of the Bible filled the vacuum left by the Temple’s destruction, and became the foundation of Jewish life throughout its long conflicted history.

"This is a rich and engaging volume, one of impressive erudition and sound scholarship. It demonstrates a deep understanding of the history that it seeks to unravel and document. I especially appreciate the attention given to primary sources in their original languages (usually accompanied by English translation) and the balanced and fair-minded handling of controversial issues." - Richard A. Taylor, DTS (Dallas Theological Seminary), in: Voice (2017)
"“In this passionate account, Isaac Kalimi crystallizes a decade of personal research into the dynamics that shaped Jewish interpretation of the Tanak from the second century B.C.E. to the sixteenth century C.E. This is a startlingly honest book that profiles the Bible as a source of conflict rather than mutual understanding among the Abrahamic traditions...It will be a fine addition to the libraries of religious studies departments, seminaries, and study groups that are committed to interfaith dialogue." - Michael W. Duggan, in: Catholic Biblical Quarterly 81 (2019)
“… Each of these chapters carries the overall theme of how the sacred text of the HB has been interpreted and why this has prompted controversy and conflict...The arguments are straightforward and have a clear conclusion at the end of each chapter. The Appendix ‘And What Now?’ gives a strong analysis of how disagreeing factions can reconcile ideas for a more peaceful future and presents a persuasive argument for peaceful coexistence between Jews and Christians in the modern world.” - Jacob Greenhouse, in: Journal for the Study of the Old Testament 43 (2019)
Also, The Talmud directly refutes your claim that the Jewish people had no confusion over the Commandments. It is literally written for the sole purpose of providing clarity to Jewish Law.
The sages of the Talmud argued against given the Ten Commandments special prominence, so as not to give ammunition to heretics who claimed that only the revealed law was important, and the man-made amendments were not. To this day, some communities stand during the reading of the commandments and some don't.
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2015-11- ... fe39a50000


Again, I still claim the Ten Commandments are not clear. JehovahsWitness has claimed they are and claims the Ancient Jews understood the Laws (they didn't), and that "Murder" is "Unlawfully Killing according to Divine Law".

Divine Law is not clear, and sadly, it should be the clearest of all laws. It is demonstrably proven that Christians took the Bible to mean, in many cases, that it was not only OK, but GOOD, to kill gay people, witches, heathens, atheists, unruly children, etc. The facts speak for themselves.

I applaud JehovahsWitness for being more moral than his religion may dictate.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

Post #17

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Image
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:36 am Your ... verse doesn't tell Christians not to kill, murder or slay.
There is no scripture that authorizes Christians to kill so any willful taking of a human life by a follower of Christ is unlawful killing , otherwise known as MURDER. Christians are commanded to live peacably with everyone and only treat people as they themsemves would want to be treated, killing under any circumstances is therefore prohibited by Christian law.


MATTHEW 7:12

All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them
LUKE 6:31
“Also, just as you want men to do to you, do the same way to them
2 TIMOTHY 2:24

For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, showing restraint when wronged
HEBREWS 12:14

Pursue peace with all people. ...
The Jehovah's Witnesses religion has always respected the divine law that prohibits the willful taking of human life.



JEHOVAHS WITNESS



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Romans 14:8

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Re: Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:36 am
4. Then explain why Jesus didn't denounce the calls for killing in the Bible but said no law in the OT was to be overturned?
Jesus did not denounce the biblical laws that governed killing in scripture because no doubt he saw nothing wrong with them. Jesus is recorded as saying "Your word is truth" and the Jews of his day viewed the Mosaic law as part of the divine word of God. The bible laws were considered a perfect reflection of Gods justice and therefore there would be no reason to denounce them.

PSALMS 119:97, 98

How I do love your law! I ponder over it all day long. Your commandment makes me wiser than my enemies, because it is with me forever





JW




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Romans 14:8

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Re: Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

Post #19

Post by boatsnguitars »

Jesus may have preached peace, as a human, but the character, Yahweh, practiced brutality, or as you call it, Divine Law. The character of Divine Jesus then promises to kill when he returns.
The two are unreconcilable.
But, when we see it as a religious text; full of myth and allegory we can make sense of it. But it would never make sense if it we true.
Hence your inability to address it as the contradiction it is.
Continuing to claim Jesus taught to love ones enemies but Yahweh was justified in killing his enemies isn't working as an example of clear Divine Law. Unless you are willing to say Jesus isn't Divine.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

Post #20

Post by boatsnguitars »

Btw, Jehovah Witnesses support the death penalty.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101974528

So much for not authorizing Christians to kill, eh?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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