A discussion about Jehovah's Witnesses

[Ross]

I recently explained in a thread, that I once belonged to this movement, and from that point on I was abruptly ignored by the Witness I was debating; so the remainder of the members of their faith may not participate with me personally due to their shunning policy. However I welcome others to talk to me and ask anything at all about the religion, as I can introduce some interesting first hand information. I am now 65 years old, and was there for nine very intensive years through the massive growth period of 1974 and 1975, the later internal power struggles of the leadership, and the awakening and dropping of membership in the early 1980's. I did not leave for any scriptural or doctrinal reasons, nor was I 'booted out'. I simply walked away.

My introductory question is: Why do you think that members of this order are so ultimately convinced of the validity of their beliefs, and will defend to the bitter end the slightest doctrinal adjustment to their conception of the scriptures?

[Miles]

I recently explained in a thread, that I once belonged to this movement, and from that point on I was abruptly ignored by the Witness I was debating; so the remainder of the members of their faith may not participate with me personally due to their shunning policy. However I welcome others to talk to me and ask anything at all about the religion, as I can introduce some interesting first hand information. I am now 65 years old, and was there for nine very intensive years through the massive growth period of 1974 and 1975, the later internal power struggles of the leadership, and the awakening and dropping of membership in the early 1980's. I did not leave for any scriptural or doctrinal reasons, nor was I 'booted out'. I simply walked away.

My introductory question is: Why do you think that members of this order are so ultimately convinced of the validity of their beliefs, and will defend to the bitter end the slightest doctrinal adjustment to their conception of the scriptures?

They are "convinced of the validity of their beliefs because they need to be. Like all Christians they have a dire need to believe there is an underlying truth to their faith, no matter how much they have to cherry pick the Bible to construct it. And, just as important, they willingly go along with whatever they're told is true, especially those "truths" that lead to reassurance and comfort. Such reassurance and comfort being paramount to the quality of their life. So, they defend their faith against anyone who might bring doubt to their doctrines; afraid that mere dissension might create a crack in them. Hence the barbed wire around the JW community. Unlike most other denominations, I believe theirs is just too fragile to risk the influence of a deserter. So it isn't that current members didn't like you or didn't want to interact with you, but that they're afraid of you. Afraid that they too may fall victim to the faults you've found in their religion and lose the reassurance and comfort they so value.

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[Ross]

I recently explained in a thread, that I once belonged to this movement, and from that point on I was abruptly ignored by the Witness I was debating; so the remainder of the members of their faith may not participate with me personally due to their shunning policy. However I welcome others to talk to me and ask anything at all about the religion, as I can introduce some interesting first hand information. I am now 65 years old, and was there for nine very intensive years through the massive growth period of 1974 and 1975, the later internal power struggles of the leadership, and the awakening and dropping of membership in the early 1980's. I did not leave for any scriptural or doctrinal reasons, nor was I 'booted out'. I simply walked away.

My introductory question is: Why do you think that members of this order are so ultimately convinced of the validity of their beliefs, and will defend to the bitter end the slightest doctrinal adjustment to their conception of the scriptures?

They are "convinced of the validity of their beliefs because they need to be. Like all Christians they have a dire need to believe there is an underlying truth to their faith, no matter how much they have to cherry pick the Bible to construct it. And, just as important, they willingly go along with whatever they're told is true, especially those "truths" that lead to reassurance and comfort. Such reassurance and comfort being paramount to the quality of their life. So, they defend their faith against anyone who might bring doubt to their doctrines; afraid that mere dissension might create a crack in them. Hence the barbed wire around the JW community. Unlike most other denominations, I believe theirs is just too fragile to risk the influence of a deserter. So it isn't that current members didn't like you or didn't want to interact with you, but that they're afraid of you. Afraid that they too may fall victim to the faults you've found in their religion and lose the reassurance and comfort they so value.

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That is amazingly well explained Miles. I hadn't quite thought of it like that before. Thank you.

[Ross]

In 1974 at the age of 16 I voluntarily undertook a Watchtower book study with a Jehovah's Witness using The New World Translation as a reference, and this lasted several months. I attended Kingdom Hall meetings and went on accompanied door to door ministry, and I was encouraged to 'dedicate' my future life to Jehovah God in prayer which would qualify me for baptism. Two friendly meetings with different Elders then took place where I was questioned to ascertain that full conversion had taken place.
Before the baptism and on the same day, a very formal service was conducted and the candidates had to answer "yes" to the following questions:

(1) Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him the Father through his Son Jesus Christ?
(2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightenment of the holy spirit?”

A decade later in 1985, these two baptism questions were changed to reinforce the concept of the organization, and religion of the Jehovah’s Witness leadership being knitted inseparably to the understanding of a Christian baptism. They now read unless they have been adjusted again:

(1) On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
(2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit directed organization?

It can be seen that this is a not a commitment toward God alone, but involved an inseparable union with, a swearing in to, and an allegiance to the organization or society of Jehovah’s Witnesses. And any such deviation from present teachings of the so called 'spirit directed organization' is tantamount to a breaking of that dedication and contract with Jehovah God.

[Ross]

(1) Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him the Father through his Son Jesus Christ?
(2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God

I have highlighted the above to demonstrate how 'loaded' the previously known Watchtower literature, now known as JW.ORG propaganda is.
When discussing any Biblical subject whatsoever, the written word propagates forcefully the concept with repeated and unrelenting demands upon the reader that the God of the Bible is The Father only, and that the God of the Hebrew scriptures is The Father only, ( the Jehovah God of the Jehovah's Witnesses.) Read any JW.ORG book or website extended link to see if this is true.

[TRANSPONDER]

It looks to me like standard practice for many religious organisations. The methods of selling the religion, keeping the faithful signed up and dealing with questions.One thing I'd noticed on various chats with believers or deconverts online is that the sect has won half the battle because of this curious phenomenon called Faith. Once you have swung it , the fellow has taken on their religion aspart of the meaning in their life and they will fight to keep believing and will deny even undeniable fact if it conflicts with what is now Faith.

I wonder how people come out of it, which is why deconversion stories are so interesting. Mostly it is a gradual process that they can't resist. A most notable feature is the top -and tail nibbling away at the Faithclaim - Creation and Hell.

Many can no longer believe Genesis. In fact I gather JW's do not believe in Young Earth but originated the subterfuge of taking 14+ billion years and dividing it into 7, wich doesn't work if you just read the order of creation, but the order of Faith doesn't seem to work like that; it is just reciting what their Authorities tell them.

Unless they do read and see they are being lied to. Sure they then drop this or that aspect, go Universal redemption and drop Eternal Torment, but will try to keep Something as their Godfaith because it is part of their personal Id. They may end up an atheist - hating Deist furiously trying to argue with a non -believer about an Intelligent creator that matters no more than a black hole a million light years away, but it it is still a matter of Faith for them and they have to fight for it. Just as hard as they fight Christians (which they no longer are) about the Bible.

Oh well, it's a fascinating study and I could rattle on for hours. But Faith and keeping people signed up to their Book Club (even issuing threats if they look like leaving) is what religions are all about.

[Ross]

I wonder how people come out of it, which is why deconversion stories are so interesting. Mostly it is a gradual process that they can't resist. A most notable feature is the top -and tail nibbling away at the Faithclaim - Creation and Hell.
keeping people signed up to their Book Club (even issuing threats if they look like leaving) is what religions are all about.

My own leaving was different to most. Apart from the weekly learning programs which involved about 8 hours of reading and meeting attendance, I had privately studied every Watchtower publication dating back 20 years or so with such detail and intensity that I knew almost everything relating to their doctrine (or so I thought.)

Then something happened to me; and from that point on I lost interest in this deep learning. Subsequently, when I had Kingdom Hall talks to do or literature to study, I simply relied upon my wealth of knowledge, and my notes which were filed almost like a concordance. Over about 2 years of this 'not drinking the water' I am now convinced that I became deprogrammed. Both the deliberate and subconscious conditioning, hardwiring, programming and influence of what they referred to as 'spiritual food' was like being fully saturated in a mindset that could not fully comprehend or tolerate anything that did not align with it. Fasting from their literature inadvertently lowered me slowly out of its grasp.

There were certainly no threats, but the local leadership went to considerable lengths to keep me in the fold; but I had lost the interest and needed new adventure, and began to long for the years I had given away.

[TRANSPONDER]

Well, I have never been a believer so you know better than me. I have heard of threats or at least coercion and I know (as do you) of the earnest attempts to retain me in this or that Faith they supposed I'd once had.

Curious story.I have come across a few where they were deconverting all the time they were preaching to others. So maybe yours is not so unusual.

[Ross]

Well, I have never been a believer so you know better than me. I have heard of threats or at least coercion and I know (as do you) of the earnest attempts to retain me in this or that Faith they supposed I'd once had.

Curious story.I have come across a few where they were deconverting all the time they were preaching to others. So maybe yours is not so unusual.

Strangely enough, the thing that suddenly halted my intense hunger toward the learning was falling absolutely head over heels in love with someone. When I picked up my books to study after this, I found that my obsessiveness had switched to this girl, and I no longer had the desire or thirst to study further. The relationship only lasted a few months and it broke my heart. But I reason now that it was a blessing in disguise. After I left the society of Jehovah's Witnesses it would be nearly 30 years before I picked up a Bible again. In all of that time, none of my once close friends from the faith ever wrote to me, telephoned me or made any attempt to contact me.

[brunumb]

After I left the society of Jehovah's Witnesses it would be nearly 30 years before I picked up a Bible again. In all of that time, none of my once close friends from the faith ever wrote to me, telephoned me or made any attempt to contact me.

They may have gone through all the (e)motions, but they clearly never really loved you. I sincerely hope you found it elsewhere.