A discussion about Jehovah's Witnesses

[Ross]

I recently explained in a thread, that I once belonged to this movement, and from that point on I was abruptly ignored by the Witness I was debating; so the remainder of the members of their faith may not participate with me personally due to their shunning policy. However I welcome others to talk to me and ask anything at all about the religion, as I can introduce some interesting first hand information. I am now 65 years old, and was there for nine very intensive years through the massive growth period of 1974 and 1975, the later internal power struggles of the leadership, and the awakening and dropping of membership in the early 1980's. I did not leave for any scriptural or doctrinal reasons, nor was I 'booted out'. I simply walked away.

My introductory question is: Why do you think that members of this order are so ultimately convinced of the validity of their beliefs, and will defend to the bitter end the slightest doctrinal adjustment to their conception of the scriptures?

[TRANSPONDER]

Well, I have never been a believer so you know better than me. I have heard of threats or at least coercion and I know (as do you) of the earnest attempts to retain me in this or that Faith they supposed I'd once had.

Curious story.I have come across a few where they were deconverting all the time they were preaching to others. So maybe yours is not so unusual.

Strangely enough, the thing that suddenly halted my intense hunger toward the learning was falling absolutely head over heels in love with someone. When I picked up my books to study after this, I found that my obsessiveness had switched to this girl, and I no longer had the desire or thirst to study further. The relationship only lasted a few months and it broke my heart. But I reason now that it was a blessing in disguise. After I left the society of Jehovah's Witnesses it would be nearly 30 years before I picked up a Bible again. In all of that time, none of my once close friends from the faith ever wrote to me, telephoned me or made any attempt to contact me.

Some deconverts have spoken of how all their society, and often family too) were within the religious bubble and, when that burst, they lost their social group. I might guess that it is significant that the appearance of a girlfriend replaced religion as the central thing in your life. Oddly enough it was a search for a possible real basic of religion that got me my girlfriend.

[Ross]

After I left the society of Jehovah's Witnesses it would be nearly 30 years before I picked up a Bible again. In all of that time, none of my once close friends from the faith ever wrote to me, telephoned me or made any attempt to contact me.

They may have gone through all the (e)motions, but they clearly never really loved you. I sincerely hope you found it elsewhere.

Eventually I did. Thank you.

[Ross]

Some deconverts have spoken of how all their society, and often family too) were within the religious bubble and, when that burst, they lost their social group. I might guess that it is significant that the appearance of a girlfriend replaced religion as the central thing in your life. Oddly enough it was a search for a possible real basic of religion that got me my girlfriend.

The religious bubble is actually a really good way to describe life within the Jehovah's Witness ORG, because as far as they are concerned is is 'us and them', The Truth and the none believers, Jehovah's people and the wicked, the good and the bad. I once even attended a meeting held by our Circuit Overseer, and he said that the world of mankind are squatters on our earth. To reinforce my comments of this movements baptism being an inseparable intertwining with its organizational society, I will continue my story a little.

In between the three years of stopping my studying and poring over Watchtower literature and then leaving the sect, I married within the faith at the age of 23. At that point I was still a virgin, if a male can correctly be described in that fashion. I was not in love with my wife and she admitted that she was not in love with me. Certainly back then, congregations contained around 50 to 100 people and were self contained units, with very little opportunity to meet and make friends outside of them with neighbouring ones except at 6 monthly circuit assemblies. This was during a time of leadership struggles and much apostasy at the top of the Watchtower tree, and headquarters actually asked Elders not to arrange or encourage even harmless non religious social gatherings, such was the paranoia present at the top. So, many Witnesses had such 'convenient' marriages.

When I departed from the congregation two years later, I remained married for another five years but eventually split with my wife and began another relationship. Although I had been out of the religion for 5 long years, I was shocked to learn that they disfellowshipped me for adultery. It was as though they had still perceived that they owned me, that I was on their books, and still in that contract.

[TRANSPONDER]

I gather that this behavior or strategy is not unique to JW's but is found in many exclusivist sects of Christianity. The same exclusion, the same tight fellowship, the same ideological control, the same attempt to keep you in it and the same closing off if they can't.

I have no personal experience of this myself, but I have heard it so often in discussions: 'Yes that's just what i found in my cultish little group'.

[Ross]

Soon after being disfellowshipped, 5 years after I had left, I experienced attempts to publicly shun me, and to make me feel shame for my actions and behaviour which were against the ethics of the religion.

The first was from my younger Sister who had recently joined the faith. I was driving round the corner from my house and noticed her on the street doing door to door ministry with her friends. I waved to her and she gave me a dirty look and turned her head away. I was flabbergasted at how ridiculous this was, and merely shook my head in disbelief. Ironically, later that day she was on the telephone to me sobbing her heart out and apologising for her actions.

Then a few weeks later, I was walking into the town centre, and an older lady who was a Witness and had been in the congregation that I had left, was approaching me. As soon as she set eyes upon me, her face twisted in disgust and she took an immediate ninety degree turn and crossed the road to avoid me and to shame me. I thought to myself: "the cheeky old ##$%£"

At that time, I was working with someone my age who attended Kingdom Hall meetings but was not baptized. I related to him what had happened, and explained that the next time that anyone whatsoever attempted to shun me in that fashion, I would walk to the other side of the road to where they crossed, and follow them with my shoulder touching theirs for a hundred yards, while staring them eyeball to eyeball.

From that point in time If ever I crossed paths with a Jehovah's Witness who I knew, they would smile and give me a friendly nod.

[Purple Knight]

My introductory question is: Why do you think that members of this order are so ultimately convinced of the validity of their beliefs, and will defend to the bitter end the slightest doctrinal adjustment to their conception of the scriptures?

Because they study. Mormons and JWs are the Christians for whom studying is a more integral part of their faith.

I'm an atheist and I respect them greatly in debate because they actually know their own lore. Other Christians... don't always.

[Ross]

My introductory question is: Why do you think that members of this order are so ultimately convinced of the validity of their beliefs, and will defend to the bitter end the slightest doctrinal adjustment to their conception of the scriptures?

Because they study. Mormons and JWs are the Christians for whom studying is a more integral part of their faith.

I'm an atheist and I respect them greatly in debate because they actually know their own lore. Other Christians... don't always.

They certainly study, and it is a requirement that they do so. The aim of the structure of their doctrine is to be able to defend any criticism aimed at their beliefs, and this has been accumulated over a period of time of more than one hundred years. If Biblical defence is not readily available, the leadership over the years looked for other sources and adopted these. In fact any argument will do if it defends their pre-conceived beliefs, often bordering on the ridiculous. This is why they can always look into their literature and find an answer to any suggestion of a theology that is not their own.

Ironically, if the leadership change their views on something, the sheep will then defend to the death that which they once opposed.

The great fault in all of this, is that they do not think things through rationally and reach personal conclusions. The doctrine is read and learned and memorised and accepted. They are adopting someone else's mind and thoughts. The religion is pre-processed. It is like a canned ready made meal.

[benchwarmer]

The great fault in all of this, is that they do not think things through rationally and reach personal conclusions. The doctrine is read and learned and memorised and accepted. They are adopting someone else's mind and thoughts. The religion is pre-processed. It is like a canned ready made meal.

And this is why you really don't need to ask a JW what they think on any particular issue related to their faith. You can just look it up on jw.org and they have to agree (or at least pretend to agree in order to remain in the flock).

In a similar vein, debates with a given JW are really just a debate with the Watchtower literature. This renders one on one debates pointless for the most part. The only useful kind of debates are the open, public ones like we have here so that others on the sideline can form their own opinions.

It's quite heart warming to read your story Ross. I'm glad you finally managed to extract yourself from that toxic situation.

As for the disfellowshipping and shunning, I'm really sorry you have to go through that, but I think maybe you are realizing it's entirely because they are afraid of your influence on others still in the group. They (the Watchtower) do this to create an 'us versus them' dynamic in order to keep the group in one piece. If they let people who have discovered all the problems continue to mingle with the flock, they know the flock will start to splinter.

I love your attitude of taking the high road and happily waving and saying hi to your old congregation members. If there is a god, I'm pretty sure we know who has the moral high ground here. Maybe some of the JWs need to read their Bibles a little more. Even Jesus hung around with the sinners and engaged with them.

[Ross]

In a similar vein, debates with a given JW are really just a debate with the Watchtower literature. This renders one on one debates pointless for the most part. The only useful kind of debates are the open, public ones like we have here so that others on the sideline can form their own opinions.

It's quite heart warming to read your story Ross. I'm glad you finally managed to extract yourself from that toxic situation.

Thank you for you kind words benchwarmer.

If I am honest, I really enjoyed my time as a Jehovah's Witness, and I think it gave me more than it took away. It was, I believe exactly what I needed at that young age. Often I wondered how things would have panned out had I fell in contact with a conventional form of Christianity instead. But they were the worlds most prolific proselytizing force back then. And it was only in the last 3 years there that the 'rose coloured glasses' faded, or the veil dropped, and I began to see some really bad traits in some members.

They had a thing called the Theocratic Ministry School which was an hour each Thursday meeting night devoted to gradually turning inexperienced Witness men into public speakers. One was expected to, but not forced to participate. At first, a new recruit simply read a short Bible passage from the podium for a few minutes to the audience, and if he could muster the courage he would add a short introduction and a conclusion explaining the moral of what had been read. Over several months or longer this progressed into a five minute address on a given topic. Then a fifteen minute talk. I observed people with wobbling knees forcing themselves to do this, others who perspired profusely, some who's hands would shake, and yet others with voice cords failing them. Once or twice I watched young 'Brothers' reach a mental block after uttering a few words in front of all and sundry, unable to speak further or continue. But it was all done with the kindly encouragement of the audience and the presiding Elder. I'm not sure if this Ministry School, introduced by once President Nathan Knorr still exists today, but as a shy and insecure sixteen year old, it boosted my confidence and abilities like nothing else ever could have. A few short years of this, and many of those inadequate men behind the public platform became confident and competent public speakers giving hour long sermons.

[brunumb]

[Replying to Ross in post #17]

It's rather like being an expert in something like Star Trek. You can study and learn every little detail of the franchise, answer any question thrown at you about it, but in the end all you have is an in depth knowledge of what is nothing more than fiction.