Should ALL Christians eat and drink the emblems of Jesus?

[Eloi]

That's this topic about: Should ALL Christians partake of the symbols of Christ?

First idea: To whom did Christ tell that he was making a covenant with, so they will be kings and judges?

Luke 22:24 However, there also arose a heated dispute among them over which one of them was considered to be the greatest. 25 But he said to them: “The kings of the nations lord it over them, and those having authority over them are called Benefactors. 26 You, though, are not to be that way. But let the one who is the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the one taking the lead as the one ministering. 27 For which one is greater, the one dining or the one serving? Is it not the one dining? But I am among you as the one serving.
28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

Second idea: If during the great tribulation Jesus separates sheep from goats according to what humans did to their brothers, who would be his brothers, and who would be the sheep selected for having treated them well? (Matt. 25:31-46).

Matt. 25:31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; 36 naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ ...

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

We do not have to give you any explanation, nor do we need your authorization or permission for anything, nor do we care if you think you should condemn our beliefs or practices. We do not work for you and you are just an independent person who believes you have personal revelations, so you will believe and do everything that your own imagination dictates at your own convenience.

Except that I posted Christ's direct words on the matter of eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

You have not.

Please also note that YOU started a thread ASKING the members of this forum, "Should all Christians eat and drink the emblems of [Jesus]?" It is not like I came to your house uninvited and started telling you what you should or should not do. I answered the question that you asked in your OP on a public forum.

We have sufficiently studied out of the Bible what we do and it has been approved by our God and his Christ... We know it for all the blessings that we as a people receive.

If you are not interested in what we have to teach you, we are much less interested in what you have to tell us coming from your own individual imagination or personal way on interpreting what you individually read out of the Bible.

The last time I checked, this is not a "JW Teaching Forum".

If you start a thread asking a question, I am permitted to respond. You can accept, refrain, engage, ignore... that is up to you... but you are not the only person reading these threads.



Peace again to you and to you all.

But in a number of posts you have really put down Jehovah's Witnesses, intimating that we are believing lies and spreading falsehoods. That requires some kind of rebuttal, which Eloi is giving.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #6]

Christ's commands were that his Apostles and all other anointed followers would drink and eat unto the covenant he made with them to rule in heaven with him.

"Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey EVERYTHING I have commanded YOU."


That was His command.



A religion cannot override Christ.


Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

We do not have to give you any explanation, nor do we need your authorization or permission for anything, nor do we care if you think you should condemn our beliefs or practices. We do not work for you and you are just an independent person who believes you have personal revelations, so you will believe and do everything that your own imagination dictates at your own convenience.

Except that I posted Christ's direct words on the matter of eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

You have not.

Please also note that YOU started a thread ASKING the members of this forum, "Should all Christians eat and drink the emblems of [Jesus]?" It is not like I came to your house uninvited and started telling you what you should or should not do. I answered the question that you asked in your OP on a public forum.

We have sufficiently studied out of the Bible what we do and it has been approved by our God and his Christ... We know it for all the blessings that we as a people receive.

If you are not interested in what we have to teach you, we are much less interested in what you have to tell us coming from your own individual imagination or personal way on interpreting what you individually read out of the Bible.

The last time I checked, this is not a "JW Teaching Forum".

If you start a thread asking a question, I am permitted to respond. You can accept, refrain, engage, ignore... that is up to you... but you are not the only person reading these threads.



Peace again to you and to you all.

But in a number of posts you have really put down Jehovah's Witnesses, intimating that we are believing lies and spreading falsehoods.

Is that not exactly what you intimate about people in all other religions (as well as people in no religion)?

Are you putting all those people down?

That requires some kind of rebuttal, which Eloi is giving.

The only rebuttal required is to show that I have said something false, something that contradicts Christ. Since Eloi cannot do that (or he would have done that), the only rebuttal remaining is to make personal accusations and/or find some excuse not to talk to 'someone like me'.

If I have said something false, then show what is false. Hold it up to Christ, show where I have contradicted Him. If you cannot, then why accuse me? I have pointed out where yours and others' teachings contradict Christ, and pointed out what Christ has said instead. If it is shown that your religion teaches things that contradict Christ, things that He never taught... wouldn't the appropriate response be to stop listening to them and instead listen to Christ? To obey HIS commands, rather than the commands of mere men?


Peace again to you.

[Eloi]

Independent Christians take to themselves everything Jesus said to his apostles. Obviously, each speech of Jesus has its own listeners, to whom his words are directed and applied.

For example, when Jesus says to the rich young man: "Sell all the things you have and distribute the proceeds to the poor, and you will have treasure in the heavens; and come be my follower." in Luke 18:22 ... do those words apply to today's independent Christians as they did to that young man?
... Or when Jesus told his followers, "you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you" in Acts 1:8, is he saying that to modern Christians?
... Or when Jesus tells the Syrophoenician woman in Mark 7:27 "it is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to the little dogs.", are those words directed to non-Jews today?

Evidently the words of Jesus have their own audience, and when he told his disciples to eat the bread and drink the wine, he was speaking to those with whom he had made the covenant to be kings with him during the Millennium, and not to all his followers in general.

Luke 22:28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

In John 6 Jesus has an audience larger than just his disciples. On that occasion he is talking about his sacrifice as a means of salvation that everyone would have to benefit from to be saved, but he IS NOT REFERRING to the emblems of a celebration that he had not even instituted yet. In fact, he establishes the celebration only with his faithful apostles and not with all his followers.

The first followers of Jesus did not even consider that the Gentiles would be candidates to reign in heaven until the year 36 when the Italian Cornelius and his family received the holy spirit and began to show signs of power.

Obviously the teachings of Jesus concerning the mighty works that his disciples would do through the holy spirit in them, ALSO do NOT apply to any Christian today, who claims that everything Jesus said is applicable to him as an isolated individual who He claims to have Jesus as Master. Anyone can claim any authority based on the same criteria but how does he show that he actually has it?

The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses has long shown that they have received that authority from Jesus and their crown is already reserved...and let the envious suffer the blessings we receive from Jehovah.

Is. 29:8 Yes, it will be just as when someone hungry dreams that he is eating,
But he wakes up hungry,
And as when someone thirsty dreams that he is drinking,
But he wakes up tired and thirsty.
So it will happen with the crowd of all the nations
That wage war against Mount Zion.

... 65:13 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says:
“Look! My servants will eat, but you will go hungry.
Look! My servants will drink, but you will go thirsty.
Look! My servants will rejoice, but you will suffer shame.
14 Look! My servants will shout joyfully because of the good condition of the heart,
But you will cry out because of the pain of heart
And you will wail because of a broken spirit.
15 You will leave behind a name that my chosen ones will use as a curse,
And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will put each of you to death,
But his own servants he will call by another name

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #6]

Christ's commands were that his Apostles and all other anointed followers would drink and eat unto the covenant he made with them to rule in heaven with him.

"Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey EVERYTHING I have commanded YOU."


That was His command.



A religion cannot override Christ.


Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

We're not overriding Christ. The Apostles were to go to the nations, and at that time all new disciples would be part of the 144,000 and thus included in the covenant that Jesus made with his anointed brothers. They would all be anointed and destined for heaven. It was only in the early 1930s that people started seeing that they were part of the great crowd that would live on the earth.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to tam in post #23]

I and Eloi and JehovahsWitness as well have shown that what you are saying is false. It is understandable that you cannot see it. (2Corinthians 4:4)

[JehovahsWitness]

Only the kings and priests are allow to participate of the emblems.

Even under the Mosaic law certain rights were reserved for the Priestly class. It makes sense that only those that are part of the new covenant partake of the emblems.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Independent Christians take to themselves everything Jesus said to his apostles.

In other words, Christians obey Christ and follow His commands and example. (a Christian is dependent upon Christ, so there is no such thing as an 'independent' Christian.)

Obviously, each speech of Jesus has its own listeners, to whom his words are directed and applied.

Lets examine this to see if it is truly supporting Eloi's claim that Christians should not obey all the commands given to the Apostles:

For example, when Jesus says to the rich young man: "Sell all the things you have and distribute the proceeds to the poor, and you will have treasure in the heavens; and come be my follower." in Luke 18:22 ... do those words apply to today's independent Christians as they did to that young man?

Those words did not apply to anyone (including the apostles) except the rich young man. His words were in response to the rich young man asking what HE (personally) lacked.

This example cannot be used to support the claim that Christians are not meant to obey everything Christ commanded the apostles. Though certainly Christ's command for us to give to the one who in need (the poor, the hungry, the homeless), etc... DO apply to ALL who are HIS followers.

... Or when Jesus told his followers, "you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you" in Acts 1:8, is he saying that to modern Christians?

Are modern Christians not also His followers?

... Or when Jesus tells the Syrophoenician woman in Mark 7:27 "it is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to the little dogs.", are those words directed to non-Jews today?

That doesn't even make sense; but again, this cannot be used to justify the claim that all Christians are NOT to obey all the commands that Christ gave to His apostles. Nothing about this is a command.

Evidently the words of Jesus have their own audience, and when he told his disciples to eat the bread and drink the wine, he was speaking to those with whom he had made the covenant to be kings with him during the Millennium, and not to all his followers in general.

If one is going to be literal, then He was speaking only to His apostles when He said those words. But most understand that this command was given to more than just the Apostles when He said "keep doing this in remembrance of me" (referring to eating the bread and wine that mean His flesh and blood). The only example we have from the bible is of EVERYONE following that command, of EVERYONE eating and drinking. Of EVERYONE who is Christian being HIS brothers, HIS Church, HIS Bride - with ONE hope, ONE calling, and ALL Chrisitans included in the promise to reign with Him in His Kingdom for a thousand years; part of the new covenant.


There was no other teaching. There was no other gospel. There was no other hope... for Christians.


These are facts.


You cannot claim to follow the bible only and then turn around and do/follow/teach things that are taught nowhere IN that book.

Luke 22:28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

In John 6 Jesus has an audience larger than just his disciples. On that occasion he is talking about his sacrifice as a means of salvation that everyone would have to benefit from to be saved, but he IS NOT REFERRING to the emblems of a celebration that he had not even instituted yet. In fact, he establishes the celebration only with his faithful apostles and not with all his followers.

Of COURSE He is referring to eating the bread and drinking the wine that HE later instituted with His apostles (and through them, all the rest of His disciples). He uses the EXACT same words: the one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood will live. Do you think He did not know what He was saying then or later? That His words would not be recalled the night He gave them the bread that means His flesh and the wine that means His blood, and told them to eat and to drink, and to keep doing this in remembrance of Him?

Did He not speak about rebuilding the Temple within three days (meaning HIS BODY) BEFORE He was put to death and then resurrected?


And AGAIN... how much more can this be emphasized??!!... EVERYONE ate and EVERYONE drank. You did not even have to be anointed to eat or to drink because the apostles were not yet anointed with holy spirit when they ate and drank.

The only thing needed was love for Christ. To love Him MOST. Because we obey the One we love the MOST. You eat and you drink because that is His command, and you love Him. At least, that is why I eat and drink, in addition to the reasons that He gave... but He said specifically that the one who LOVES Him is the ONE who keeps His commands. That if we love HIM, we will keep HIS word.

The first followers of Jesus did not even consider that the Gentiles would be candidates to reign in heaven until the year 36 when the Italian Cornelius and his family received the holy spirit and began to show signs of power.

Yes, more would be INCLUDED in the covenant.

Not EXCLUDED.

The WTS and its teaching EXCLUDE people from the covenant.

Obviously the teachings of Jesus concerning the mighty works that his disciples would do through the holy spirit in them, ALSO do NOT apply to any Christian today,

Says who?

and who claims that everything Jesus said is applicable to him as an isolated individual who He claims to have Jesus as Master. Anyone can claim any authority based on the same criteria but how does he show that he actually has it?

The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses has long shown that they have received that authority from Jesus and their crown is already reserved...and let the envious suffer the blessings we receive from Jehovah.

The only thing that has been shown is that the GB teaches false things, makes false predictions, teaches millions of people that they are not (and cannot be) the brothers of Christ or the Church, teaches millions of people that they cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven (Christ rebuked the Pharisees where not permitting people who wanted to enter into the Kingdom of heaven. Matt 23:13). As just one small example to add to the list of examples: they formerly taught that "Gog and magog" in Revelation was Satan, when clearly - written right there in black and white - Gog and magog are deceived BY Satan. Why should anyone trust these people with their eternal lives, even to the point of obeying them when they contradict Christ?



"Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."



May anyone who is thirsting, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of LIFE!"

(which water is holy spirit, poured out from Christ to whomever He wishes, given to Him without end from His Father)


Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

Independent Christians take to themselves everything Jesus said to his apostles.

In other words, Christians obey Christ and follow His commands and example. (a Christian is dependent upon Christ, so there is no such thing as an 'independent' Christian.)

There are self-described Christians who do not follow the Bible's guidance to meet together (Hebrews 10:25), and think that they are following Christ and that that makes them a true follower of Christ. Independent Christians suffer from their delusions that they can somehow be followers of Christ if they just "listen" to him, independently. They argue for consuming the emblems at the Memorial and yet do not follow the clear message at Hebrews 10:25.

Jesus always went to the synagogue and the early Christians met in peoples' homes. There has always been an organization of Christians. And why would Jehovah have an organization with the people of Israel back in the day, and yet not have one today with Christians---his special people now?

[tam]

Peace to you,

First... assuming that these "independent Christians" (a title that you are incorrectly using to describe me) are wrong about something, this does NOT mean that you are right about not eating and drinking. Pointing out a wrong (or potential wrong) in someone else does not correct the wrong (or potential wrong) in yourself. It is just an attempt to deflect from your own wrong.

Peace to you,

Independent Christians take to themselves everything Jesus said to his apostles.

In other words, Christians obey Christ and follow His commands and example. (a Christian is dependent upon Christ, so there is no such thing as an 'independent' Christian.)

There are self-described Christians who do not follow the Bible's guidance to meet together (Hebrews 10:25),

You don't know if these Christians (self-described or not) meet together.

Even if they did not, the author of Hebrews states himself that some continue to gather together and some do not, but that he is advising these ones to whom he is writing to not give up meeting together so that they can encourage one another and spur one another on toward love and good deeds.

and think that they are following Christ and that that makes them a true follower of Christ.

Following Christ would make them a true follower of Christ.

Independent Christians suffer from their delusions that they can somehow be followers of Christ if they just "listen" to him, independently.

Again there is no such thing as an 'independent' Christian. Every Christian is dependent upon Christ.

But of course a person is a follower of Christ if they listen to and follow Christ.

A follower of Christ... follows Christ.

They argue for consuming the emblems at the Memorial and yet do not follow the clear message at Hebrews 10:25.

See introduction at the top of this post (in italics).

In addition, whoever 'they' are... I have simply posted the words of Christ. Whether you or others listen to His words - or to the commands and interpretations of erroneous men - is not up to me. I am simply countering the false teaching of a religion that tells you Christ is not speaking to you, that you ARE NOT His brother, His Church, His Bride, that you are not permitted to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

No one taught that in the bible. Not Christ. Not the apostles. Not Paul. No one. This is a fact.

You CAN come to Him. You CAN say yes to Him. You ARE invited to come to Him, to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

The door is yet OPEN.

Jesus always went to the synagogue and the early Christians met in peoples' homes.

Or, if they could not, they wrote letters. Today we also have the internet (which enters into people's homes). People can also meet in person (if possible) and speak with others and bear witness to Christ (anywhere).

But if someone does not have (or know) any others in Christ, does that mean this person should join something false just to meet with other people who profess to be Christian?

Or should that person just remain in Christ, follow Him, listen to His voice, obey His commands?

There has always been an organization of Christians.

What do you think the Body of Christ is? He is the head, and His Church are the members of His Body. Are you suggesting that He is not capable of directing His own Body? His own Church?

According to your religion, you are not even a member of the Church. Who do you think your religion is serving when it tell millions of people NOT to do what Christ said to do in order to have life in oneself; when it shuts the door to the kingdom of heaven in the faces of people who want to enter; when it convince people that they should not even want to be one of His brothers, His Church, His Bride?

And why would Jehovah have an organization with the people of Israel back in the day, and yet not have one today with Christians---his special people now?

Didn't Christ say that the kind of worshipers the Father desired were those who worshiped in spirit and in truth (rather than in Jerusalem, or on 'this mountain' or 'that mountain')? Did that not signify a change? The system from before, given to Israel, was given as a shadow of things to come; physical examples of spiritual realities; the law itself being a tutor leading to Christ.

Now we are to listen to Him... and worship in and through Him (the Truth, the Spirit).

He is the One building HIS Church, HIS Body (and so also the Temple, because the Temple is His Body). He is the High Priest; the Chief Shepherd, who calls His sheep by name and leads us. He teaches His sheep, directs His sheep, rebukes and disciplines His sheep whom He loves, feeds His sheep, commands His sheep.

He, Himself.



Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy