If not the Consensus of Experts, Who ought we Trust?

[boatsnguitars]

If there is a consensus among experts on an issue, should we - presumably non-experts - provisionally accept their view?
If not, how do you come to a provisional belief about something that you don't know anything about it?

For example, should a person who hasn't heard of Jesus accept that the consensus of experts that Jesus most probably was a real person?
Should we accept the vast majority of Climate Scientists on Climate Change? (Or should we reject Environmentalism because it's all about the money, unlike - I guess - the oil industry....)
Should we accept the consensus of doctors on Covid, or listen to our Aunt who read in her tea leaves and claims the vaccine is so the Gub'm'n't can track us?
If you were to take an airplane, would you want someone who has passed a series of tests proctored by experts, or someone who claims to know how to fly on Faith?

The Bonus Question is: How do you know if someone is an expert on God or the Supernatural? What can we test them on? If they can quote their Holy Text?

[boatsnguitars]

Samson had the LORD on his side. The Philistines worshiped manmade idols. Who had the greatest power?

I would assume the powers were equal. Why would anyone assume that one god concept is greater than another?

YOU ASSUME.

YOU FAILED to debate again and why are we using all caps?
It seems that you would prefer that I pretend know that which I don't. When it comes to the gods, we can either admit that we lack knowledge if they exist or not, or ASSUME that they do exist.
So I ask again... Why would anyone assume that one god concept is greater than another?

Why should I debate the obvious? If the idols of the Philistines were equal with that of Samson, they would NOT have been killed by Samson. It certainly wasn't a draw!

Maybe he cheated?

You're grasping at straws. One against 1000 ---- how is cheating possible?

Maybe he threw sand in their eyes?

BTW, doesn't this sum up the Religionists position? Someone claims it was 1 against 1000, and they believe it. "It must have been God! How else could he have won!?"

Um, maybe the story isn't true? Not everything people say is true, even in books some people claim are perfectly true.

But you can't get a Religionist to admit to that. They first assume it's all true, then claim we have the burden to show it isn't. It's absurd, but that's Religion for you.

The point is, if one doesn't believe in GOD, one isn't going to accept that Samson was assisted by GOD to kill 1000 heathen soldiers.

Poison the night before.

The fact is, religious stories are lies. They just are.

However, if there is any truth (maybe it was 100, but grew in the telling - and Samson had an army, but was given credit) to any religious tale, you will find the answer to be very mundane and non-supernatural.

This has happened in all cases where a supernatural claim was investigated. 1000000000000000000000000000000 to 0.

If supernaturalists could prove ONE example of the supernatural, and stop referring to ancient legends, then one might have a SMALL reason to believe in the supernatural.

This has not happened. There is no evidence that someone can point to and say, "That's Supernatural. You can test it, you can study it, you can see that the only explanation is that something non-natural is happening."

Religionists need to get a grip on Reality. There are real things happening (like Climate Change) that they continue to not understand, and are having real, negative impacts to humanity. This anti-science, pro-religion thing is all fun and games when you're hanging out with your stoner friends in high school, but it's time to wake up to the fact that Santa doesn't exist.

[LittleNipper]

Samson had the LORD on his side. The Philistines worshiped manmade idols. Who had the greatest power?

I would assume the powers were equal. Why would anyone assume that one god concept is greater than another?

YOU ASSUME.

YOU FAILED to debate again and why are we using all caps?
It seems that you would prefer that I pretend know that which I don't. When it comes to the gods, we can either admit that we lack knowledge if they exist or not, or ASSUME that they do exist.
So I ask again... Why would anyone assume that one god concept is greater than another?

Why should I debate the obvious? If the idols of the Philistines were equal with that of Samson, they would NOT have been killed by Samson. It certainly wasn't a draw!

Maybe he cheated?

You're grasping at straws. One against 1000 ---- how is cheating possible?

Maybe he threw sand in their eyes?

BTW, doesn't this sum up the Religionists position? Someone claims it was 1 against 1000, and they believe it. "It must have been God! How else could he have won!?"

Um, maybe the story isn't true? Not everything people say is true, even in books some people claim are perfectly true.

But you can't get a Religionist to admit to that. They first assume it's all true, then claim we have the burden to show it isn't. It's absurd, but that's Religion for you.

The point is, if one doesn't believe in GOD, one isn't going to accept that Samson was assisted by GOD to kill 1000 heathen soldiers.

Poison the night before.

The fact is, religious stories are lies. They just are.

However, if there is any truth (maybe it was 100, but grew in the telling - and Samson had an army, but was given credit) to any religious tale, you will find the answer to be very mundane and non-supernatural.

This has happened in all cases where a supernatural claim was investigated. 1000000000000000000000000000000 to 0.

If supernaturalists could prove ONE example of the supernatural, and stop referring to ancient legends, then one might have a SMALL reason to believe in the supernatural.

This has not happened. There is no evidence that someone can point to and say, "That's Supernatural. You can test it, you can study it, you can see that the only explanation is that something non-natural is happening."

Religionists need to get a grip on Reality. There are real things happening (like Climate Change) that they continue to not understand, and are having real, negative impacts to humanity. This anti-science, pro-religion thing is all fun and games when you're hanging out with your stoner friends in high school, but it's time to wake up to the fact that Santa doesn't exist.

So, what exactly are YOU going to do about climate change. If the Sun sends out a major solar flare and all the electric grids are burned up, what are YOU going to do about it? If YOU get sick and it's found that YOU have cancer and you have a 50/50 chance of survival, what are YOU going to do about it? Not much I take it... PS> I have always applied CHRISTmas to celebrate the Birthday of Jesus (no matter what actual day it might have been). You might have a tree, expect gifts and think of Santa, but that's you and not me.

[boatsnguitars]

I would assume the powers were equal. Why would anyone assume that one god concept is greater than another?

YOU ASSUME.

YOU FAILED to debate again and why are we using all caps?
It seems that you would prefer that I pretend know that which I don't. When it comes to the gods, we can either admit that we lack knowledge if they exist or not, or ASSUME that they do exist.
So I ask again... Why would anyone assume that one god concept is greater than another?

Why should I debate the obvious? If the idols of the Philistines were equal with that of Samson, they would NOT have been killed by Samson. It certainly wasn't a draw!

Maybe he cheated?

You're grasping at straws. One against 1000 ---- how is cheating possible?

Maybe he threw sand in their eyes?

BTW, doesn't this sum up the Religionists position? Someone claims it was 1 against 1000, and they believe it. "It must have been God! How else could he have won!?"

Um, maybe the story isn't true? Not everything people say is true, even in books some people claim are perfectly true.

But you can't get a Religionist to admit to that. They first assume it's all true, then claim we have the burden to show it isn't. It's absurd, but that's Religion for you.

The point is, if one doesn't believe in GOD, one isn't going to accept that Samson was assisted by GOD to kill 1000 heathen soldiers.

Poison the night before.

The fact is, religious stories are lies. They just are.

However, if there is any truth (maybe it was 100, but grew in the telling - and Samson had an army, but was given credit) to any religious tale, you will find the answer to be very mundane and non-supernatural.

This has happened in all cases where a supernatural claim was investigated. 1000000000000000000000000000000 to 0.

If supernaturalists could prove ONE example of the supernatural, and stop referring to ancient legends, then one might have a SMALL reason to believe in the supernatural.

This has not happened. There is no evidence that someone can point to and say, "That's Supernatural. You can test it, you can study it, you can see that the only explanation is that something non-natural is happening."

Religionists need to get a grip on Reality. There are real things happening (like Climate Change) that they continue to not understand, and are having real, negative impacts to humanity. This anti-science, pro-religion thing is all fun and games when you're hanging out with your stoner friends in high school, but it's time to wake up to the fact that Santa doesn't exist.

So, what exactly are YOU going to do about climate change. If the Sun sends out a major solar flare and all the electric grids are burned up, what are YOU going to do about it? If YOU get sick and it's found that YOU have cancer and you have a 50/50 chance of survival, what are YOU going to do about it? Not much I take it... PS> I have always applied CHRISTmas to celebrate the Birthday of Jesus (no matter what actual day it might have been). You might have a tree, expect gifts and think of Santa, but that's you and not me.

I understand that Christians only care about saving their own skin, which is why they feel they can ignore all the science. I get that.

But you miss the point. When Christians, en masse, denigrate science - especially such well-settled science as CC, it effects all of us. It harms people. They actively are voting for people who then argue - for example - that smoking doesn't cause cancer (remember that?), or HIV doesn't cause AIDS (remember that?), or that COVID isn't deadly (remember that), or that CFC's don't cause problems to the Ozone Layer (remember that), or that fossil fuels aren't causing CC.

If this wasn't bad enough - which it is - they use their ignorance to deigrate science and then elevate the idea that their 'faith' or 'beliefs' are as valid as science. "I don't believe in Evolution! How could it happen in 6,000 years!? I know my Faith in God and Jesus gives me the assurance of things I can't see! You're evil! Repent!"

Ignorance shouldn't be lauded, yet, Christians seem to have created a multi-billion dollar industry teaching that ignorance is next to godliness.

[Clownboat]

The point is, if one doesn't believe in GOD, one isn't going to accept that Samson was assisted by GOD to kill 1000 heathen soldiers.

If one doesn't believe in Santa, one isn't going to accept that Santa delivers presents via chimneys on Christmas.
If one doesn't believe the Tooth Fairy, one isn't going to accept that the Tooth Fairies gives money in exchange for teeth.
If one doesn't believe in Allah, one isn't going to accept that Muhammed took a trip on a winged horse.
if one doesn't believe in the Christian god, one isn't going to accept that a man lived inside a fish for days, that a donkey spoke or that the bodies of many dead saints walked the streets of Jerusalem.

Via faith, a human can believe any of these claims. I don't think you thought this through very well though, as faith is a requirement in order to believe in something that is false (Big Foot, Nessie, Allah). Crazy that faith (a mechanism required in order to believe in a falsehood) is required to believe in any of the available god concepts don't you think?

[LittleNipper]

IN GOD WE TRUST

[boatsnguitars]

IN GOD WE TRUST

Reported.

[Clownboat]

IN GOD WE TRUST

Reported.

We have seen it here before. Once they get themselves banned from the site for not being able to follow the rules, they can then pretend that they are martyrs of sorts in place of being the rule breakers they are.

Same old same old.

[boatsnguitars]

IN GOD WE TRUST

Reported.

We have seen it here before. Once they get themselves banned from the site for not being able to follow the rules, they can then pretend that they are martyrs of sorts in place of being the rule breakers they are.

Same old same old.

It's a strange thing. I feel it's one of the reasons Christianity is so successful among so many people: it's a celebration of martyrdom, and so the adherent gains more affinity with Jesus in his martyrdom when the adherent experiences their own feeling of persecution. The more they feel persecuted, the better, so they find ways from the benign to extreme, to garner that persecution.

This in inevitably leads to people wanting to be more and more extreme in their practice of the religion, because - at some point - even their family starts to say, "Hey, aren't you taking this too seriously?!" That just becomes confirmation that they are on the right path!

It's such a horrible, viscous cycle. What makes it worse is that because this martyrdom is celebrated, people admire the priests and ministers because they've taken the extremist plunge, and the ministers and priests begin to think their sacrifice is not as much as it should be - since Jesus died for his Faith - and so they need to feel they are inferior, and that only death is the appropriate expression of devoutness. It becomes a competition: Let's send people to the jungles of the Amazon to preach the Bible... no, let's go to a war zone!
No, let's create a Nation that buys and sells human beings, and kills jews, and rapes children! That will get people REALLY persecuting us! It will be glorious!

[brunumb]

It's a strange thing. I feel it's one of the reasons Christianity is so successful among so many people: it's a celebration of martyrdom, and so the adherent gains more affinity with Jesus in his martyrdom when the adherent experiences their own feeling of persecution. The more they feel persecuted, the better, so they find ways from the benign to extreme, to garner that persecution.

There is an interesting book on martyrdom "The Myth of Persecution" by Candida Moss. From a review (link below):

There were reports of fanatics deliberately seeking out the opportunity to die for their faith, including a mob that turned up at the door of a Roman official in Asia Minor, demanding to be martyred, only to be turned away when he couldn't be bothered to oblige them.

https://www.salon.com/2013/02/24/the_my ... ersecuted/

[otseng]

IN GOD WE TRUST

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