WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

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WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #1

Post by Eddie Ramos »

To be more specific, my question for this thread is at what point between Christ's death on the cross on Friday afternoon in 33 A.D., and his resurrection Sunday morning, did his soul go into hell (the grave)? Doesn't the Bible tell us that his soul went with the thief to paradise that very day?

Luke 23:42–43 (KJV 1900)
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


But we know that his soul was indeed in hell (the grave) because of this passage:

Psalm 16:10 (KJV 1900)
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;
Neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


And rather than responding with what scholars think or what the general consensus is, please open and use the scriptures to provide the answers, as the scriptures are the authority of the children of God. My goal here is to show that there is no way to harmonize these two scriptures with the Bible if we believe that Christ died only once, at the cross in 33 A.D. But if we can see that he died twice (once before the world began and then again at the cross in 33 A.D.) then we have perfect harmony with the scriptures.

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #41

Post by Eddie Ramos »

boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 5:44 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:14 am DID JESUS DIE TWO TIMES?
1 PETER 3:18

For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit
Which contradicts claims that he was bodily resurrected...
The Bible teaches with 100% certainty that Christ rose with the same body that he physically died with. How then do you explain the prophecy about his flesh not seeing corruption if you claim he rose as a spirit?

Acts 2:30–32 (KJV 1900)
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.


The emphasis on the physical raising of Christ in the flesh is what this passage is focusing on. That body that was crucified, pierced and buried, is the exact same body he rose with.

Luke 24:36–39 (KJV 1900)
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


Also note that Christ was also quick to assure them that he was no spirit standing there, but the same flesh and blood body that was crucified and which rose again. So, the passage that was quoted from the NLT is unfaithful and bias, as it changes the actual words God used into words that the translators thought would best suit their doctrine. Christ was made alive (quickened) by the Spirit, not "in the spirit (NLT)". We can easily see this if we open up the Greek text and see which word God decided to use here. When we do, we can see that is wasn't the preposition "in" (ἐν). So, this is folly to claim that he rose as a Spirit.

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #42

Post by Miles »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:13 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:02 am .

For what it's worth, most of the commentaries I looked at identify the speaker in Psalm 16:10 as David, not Jesus.

.
Thanks for your reply. Bible commentaries are only any good if they point you back tot he scriptures rather than giving you their "educated guess". In this case, most of those commentaries that you mentioned would be incorrect because they're not taking the whole Bible into account.
So you know this to be a fact because ____________________________________________ . Or is it just something you find to be highly likely?

.

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #43

Post by Eddie Ramos »

Miles wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:02 am
Eddie Ramos wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:13 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:02 am .

For what it's worth, most of the commentaries I looked at identify the speaker in Psalm 16:10 as David, not Jesus.

.
Thanks for your reply. Bible commentaries are only any good if they point you back tot he scriptures rather than giving you their "educated guess". In this case, most of those commentaries that you mentioned would be incorrect because they're not taking the whole Bible into account.
So you know this to be a fact because ____________________________________________ . Or is it just something you find to be highly likely?

.
Well, because I just gave you the scripture reference that proved those very commentaries that you said most of them stated that David said those words about himself. The Bible proved those commentaries on that point to be incorrect. So, we can say for a fact that they did not take the rest of the scriptures into account because if they did, then they would have seen that David spoke those things of Christ and not himself.

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #44

Post by Eloi »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:13 pm (...) My goal here is to show that there is no way to harmonize these two scriptures with the Bible if we believe that Christ died only once, at the cross in 33 A.D. But if we can see that he died twice (once before the world began and then again at the cross in 33 A.D.) then we have perfect harmony with the scriptures.
I never heard anything like that in my whole life ... and so far, you have done nothing of the kind here (proving that Jesus died twice? :shock: ) ...

You say in your OP: "please open and use the scriptures to provide the answers, as the scriptures are the authority of the children of God. "... you are presented with this biblical text:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:14 am DID JESUS DIE TWO TIMES?
1 PETER 3:18

For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit
... and you're still as cool as a dachshund :shock: (That would be in Spanish something like: you continue to be as fresh as a lettuce).

Here again: Christ died once for all time 1 Pet. 3:18.

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #45

Post by Eddie Ramos »

Eloi wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:06 am
Eddie Ramos wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:13 pm (...) My goal here is to show that there is no way to harmonize these two scriptures with the Bible if we believe that Christ died only once, at the cross in 33 A.D. But if we can see that he died twice (once before the world began and then again at the cross in 33 A.D.) then we have perfect harmony with the scriptures.
I never heard anything like that in my whole life ... and so far, you have done nothing of the kind here (proving that Jesus died twice? :shock: ) ...

You say in your OP: "please open and use the scriptures to provide the answers, as the scriptures are the authority of the children of God. "... you are presented with this biblical text:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:14 am DID JESUS DIE TWO TIMES?
1 PETER 3:18

For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit
... and you're still as cool as a dachshund :shock: (That would be in Spanish something like: you continue to be as fresh as a lettuce).

Here again: Christ died once for all time 1 Pet. 3:18.
Throughout this thread, there will be plenty of time to explain every passage associated with my O.P. For now, you can read post #41 to help with understanding 1 Peter 3:18. Also, it matters greatly that one dies not place their trust in the scholarly work of men as they translated the Bible because many factors, in many translations, affected the word choices they made in every passage. This is particularly true in the NLT. The more I become acquainted with that translation, the more I'm convinced that it paraphrases the idea the translators tried to convey. And that causes the reader alot of confusion as to what the Bible actually says, because at the end of the day, that's the only thing that matters.

And as far as never having heard this doctrine before, I completely understand. God told us that there were things that were written in his Word that he would keep closed up to our understanding until the time of the end.

Daniel 12:8-10 (KJV) 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

So, it's not that any Bible student has worked harder to see these things from the Bible than others, not at all. It's only that we happen to be living in that particular time and season the Bible spoke of. So, before this time, I also believed that Christ only died once and that's when he made payment for sins, at the cross of 33 A.D. (as do the churches of the world still). But then God opened up this information (and much more) to test everyone who claimed to belong to God and to see if they would make correction to their doctrine or if they would continue to trust in what the churches, as a whole, continue to teach.

When God opened up this understanding from the Bible, how could one make sure that this "new" teaching was actually from God and not just made up in one's imagination? Harmony is and has always been the key. Because the Bible is one cohesive truth, we know that everything in the Bible must be in perfect harmony with itself, and now we can see that it is, if we can see that Christ indeed died twice. But what we couldn't see before (because our eyes of understanding were closed by God) was the contradiction we held as we taught that payment for sins took place on the cross of 33 A.D. But again, that's because God had purposely kept anyone from understanding this particular truth. Here is an example where God did this before:

Luke 9:44-45 (KJV) 44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. 45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

Luke 24:44-45 (KJV) 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #46

Post by JehovahsWitness »

historia wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:53 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:21 pm
historia wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:16 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:49 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:46 am
The Bible says he was bodily resurrected.
Where does it say that?
This is entailed in the word resurrection itself. ...
How so?
So, words have meanings according to how people use them.

If we look at ancient Greco-Roman sources (see above) and Second Temple Jewish sources, we see that, when talking about the dead coming back to life, when authors referred to "resurrection" -- in Greek anastasis and related terms -- they invariably were describing someone coming back to bodily life.

If an ancient person thought that someone became a spirit after they died, they would almost certainly not have called that "resurrection."
All very interesting and you are probably right; but my main concern is what happened on reality to Jesus.

Since the bible writer Paul spoke of being raised in spirit , deliberately *contrasting * it with dying in the flesh, how can you suggest he is saying Jesus was raised in the flesh? See 1 Cor 15


VERSE 35: How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming ...

VERSE 44
It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body.

VERSE 45
The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit


I'm finding it hard to see how the above can be interpreted as anything but that Christ was raised in a spiritual body. Unless you conclude that "raised from the dead" is not a refernce to "resurrection"
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #47

Post by historia »

Eloi wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:12 pm
There is not any GETTING A BODY BACK involved in the idea of resurrection, but GETTING THE LIFE BACK.
You keep repeating this oddly-worded assertion. But the rest of us have no reason to think this is what ancient pagans believed unless you can cite evidence to support your claim.

In the examples I cited above, the ancient pagan authors clearly understood "resurrection" to refer to someone returning to life in their physical body. All of the stories of people being "resurrected" they reference are people returning to physical life here on earth.

Ancient pagans also thought people could become spirits or ghosts after they died. They didn't call that "resurrection."

If you have an example of an ancient pagan author using the term "resurrection" to refer to someone coming back to life but not in a physical body, provide it. If you can't, then you don't really have an argument.

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #48

Post by historia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 8:57 am
See 1 Cor 15
Paul's views on the resurrected body is one of my favorite topics, so I am always happy to discuss it.

But before we move onto that debate, perhaps we can linger for a moment on the point we were previously discussing:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 8:57 am
historia wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:53 pm
If we look at ancient Greco-Roman sources (see above) and Second Temple Jewish sources, we see that, when talking about the dead coming back to life, when authors referred to "resurrection" -- in Greek anastasis and related terms -- they invariably were describing someone coming back to bodily life.

If an ancient person thought that someone became a spirit after they died, they would almost certainly not have called that "resurrection."
All very interesting and you are probably right; but my main concern is what happened on reality to Jesus.
But the question still remains: If the earliest Christians thought that Jesus became a spirit after he died -- as you seem to be asserting -- why would they have called that "resurrection"?

The story of Lazarus being raised from the dead -- to pick a different example -- would have been intelligeable to both ancient Jews and pagans as a story about "resurrection," which John says explicitly. But had the story been one in which Lazurus was seen again four days later as a spirit, I don't think anyone then would have called that "resurrection." That's just not what that term or concept meant to ancient people.

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #49

Post by JehovahsWitness »

There is no doubt that the idea of a spiritual resurrection was something new. The Jews had no notion of it (although they knew of the spiritual realm where God resides with his angels). The point remains however that Jesus message was of a heavenly kingdom ,(The kingdom of the heavens) , lead by a sacrificed Messiah that would return leading the angels of the heavens (spirit beings).

What the Jews understood at the time is neither here nor there (how much less the pagans with their myriads of false doctrine stumbling about in complete spiritual ignorance). Jesus came, not just as the Prophet and the Messiah but as John explained THE WORD who was at God's side before the physical universe began and who would return to that same position in the spiritual realm.

Given the above have been established by the Lord himself, there are only three options open upon his death.

1 Jesus dies and stays dead
2. Jesus dies and returns to life as a human
3. Jesus dies and returns to life as a non-human (spirit)

Option #1 : Is contrary to the bible narrative
Option #2: Is essentially the same as option #1 (just delayed until he dies a 2nd, 3rd 4th ...time)
Option #3 : We take Jesus at his word that he is returning to his Father in the spiritual realm which would necessitate his existing there in a spiritual form.

However long it took the disciples to understand this, however ludicrous and unheard of this might have been to others, however unique in the history of all religious literature of the time this may have been : the Christian narrative is of a Christ that comes back to life from the dead and ascends to the heavens to be with God .
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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #50

Post by Eddie Ramos »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:19 am "Hell" is actually the grave. Many versions of the Bible have screwed up the meaning of it, but it's obvious if one does some research. When Jesus was in "hell," he was actually in the grave---the tomb that was prepared for him. We have no "soul" that separates from us when we die. Jesus simply was dead in the tomb for three days. His "soul" didn't go anywhere. Then, after the three days, he was brought back to life. So Jesus being in "hell" meant that he was in the grave for three days.
The word in question from the O.P. is the word "Sheol" based on Psalm 16:10, which is where Christ's soul was. But in 33 A.D. we know that his soul was not in the grave "hell", but rather in paradise. Now, it's important to understand what God means when he uses the Greek word translated as Paradise. This Greek word, "παράδεισος" is only used 3 times in the New Testament and it's always translated the same way. So, in order to understand what Jesus was talking about by telling the thief that he would be with him in paradise that day, is to look up the other 2 places where this same Greek word is used.

2 Corinthians 12:2–4 (KJV 1900)
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


Paul here is referring to himself as the man in Christ, and he repeats himself 2 times but in different ways to explain that the third heaven is paradise. And this next scripture also uses the same word and gives us more information about paradise.

Revelation 2:7 (KJV 1900)
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


We know that Christ's physical body was placed into the tomb until he rose Sunday morning in that same body. The question and purpose of this thread, is to talk about the location of his soul. But it looks like we have to take one step backwards and talk about whether the Bible teaches if a man has a soul to begin with. The short answer from the Bible is absolutely yes. We can first see this when we examine the way God created man in the first place versus the way he created the animals.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV 1900)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Now, the word "life" becomes far more interesting when we can see that this word is actually plural in the Hebrew text, therefore, this out to say, "and breathed into his nostrils the breath of lives". We also find that the word "breath" used in this verse is not the same "breath" that any of the animals were given. This "breath" that God breathed upon Adam was specific to human beings.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV 1900)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (nᵊšāmâ) of life; and man became a living soul.


But the "breath" that God gave to animals, he also gave to human beings.

Genesis 7:15 (KJV 1900)
And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh (the animals), wherein is the breath (rûaḥ) of life.


Genesis 41:38 (KJV 1900)
And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit (breath) (rûaḥ) of God is?



We can see that Genesis 2:7 is describing the breath that God gave specifically to mankind. And there is no scripture that ever relates this "breath" to animals. But the "breath" that God gave to animals was also given to human beings. In other words, animals were given only one type of breath, but mankind were given 2. This is why when God speaks of the death of everyone in the flood (both man and animals), do you know which word for breath he uses? He uses both, but we wouldn't know this simply by reading any translation, but by looking at the original text. I will add the missing word below.

Genesis 7:22 (KJV 1900)
All in whose nostrils was the breath (nᵊšāmâ) breath (rûaḥ) of life (lives), of all that was in the dry land, died.


So, the next question would be, what makes our "breath" different from the "breath" of animals? Well, it's because only human beings were created in the image and likeness of God. And since God is invisible because he is a spirit, our image and likeness was given to us after Christ because Christ is the image of the invisible God. So, when the Bible tells us that we were created after God's image and likeness, we can understand that to mean Christ. So mankind was created, not only with a physical breath which sustains our physical life (like the animals have), but we were also created with a spiritual breath which identifies with our spiritual life. This is our soul.

When we understand this, then God's warning in the garden , that they would die the very day they would disobey God, becomes much clearer as to what died, because it wasn't a physical death at all, since Adam lived 930 years. It was a spiritual death, or, the death of the soul.

Genesis 2:17 (KJV 1900)
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Now we can also understand so many references that have physically living people asking to be brought to life.

Psalm 80:18 (KJV 1900)
So will not we go back from thee:
Quicken us (make us alive), and we will call upon thy name.


Psalm 119:93 (KJV 1900)
I will never forget thy precepts (God's Word):
For with them thou hast quickened me (made me alive).


So, when a person who is physically alive asks to be brought to life and then gives thanks because he has been brought to life, we can understand that to identify with one's spiritual life, or salvation. And that's exactly what salvation is, it's the raising back to life of the soul that was dead in sins.

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV 1900)
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)


Colossians 2:13 (KJV 1900)
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


So, the fact that man has a soul is indeed a biblical fact, and the fact that the soul of man (his spiritual life) can indeed die while the person is physically alive, is also a biblical fact.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV 1900)
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


onewithhim wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:19 am When he said to the thief beside him that that man would be with him in Paradise, he didn't say they would be there that day. The comma changes the meaning, and it's important where we put the comma. It can be read: "Verily I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise." Remember that there is no punctuation in Hebrew or Greek. The comma was placed before "today" by some scribe that believed in the flight of the "soul" to heaven after the death of the individual. The comma after "today" means that the thief will be with Jesus in Paradise, but it doesn't indicate exactly when that will be. We are still waiting for Jesus to come back and take care of all wickedness on the earth. The thief is still in his grave. He will be resurrected "in the last day." (John 6:40,44)
Ultimately, people will place the comma wherever they want to in order to make the sentence say what makes sense to them, but why is it that in all 68 times that Christ says, "verily I say unto you", that the comma placement is never questioned, except in Luke 23:43? It's because many people can't make sense of Christ's physical body being in the tomb and his soul in paradise, yet also have the soul be in hell (as Psalm 16:10 states).

But we don't need to play with comma placements in order to make sense of the text, we only need to understand that Psalm 16:10 is not referring tot he time of the cross in 33 A.D., but before the world began, when Christ died to make payment for sins. The cross of 33 A.D., was then, a manifestation of what Christ already accomplished from the foundation of the world. It was a display for us to witness. This is why Christ's soul was very much alive when he died, which is why it could go with the thief (who was also now spiritually alive (meaning saved)) to paradise. But before the world began, when he actually became sin and made payment in both body and soul, he had to die in accordance with His own law. And die he did.

Isaiah 53:10 (KJV 1900)
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:
When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
He shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


This is why we need to pay close attention to every detail that comes from the mouth of God, because nothing is spoken in vain. And this is why Christ's soul could go into paradise that same day he died, just like he said. We have further confirmation because the bible tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And this was true from the very beginning of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:6–8 (KJV 1900)
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:21–24 (KJV 1900)
 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

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