WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

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WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

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Post by Eddie Ramos »

To be more specific, my question for this thread is at what point between Christ's death on the cross on Friday afternoon in 33 A.D., and his resurrection Sunday morning, did his soul go into hell (the grave)? Doesn't the Bible tell us that his soul went with the thief to paradise that very day?

Luke 23:42–43 (KJV 1900)
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


But we know that his soul was indeed in hell (the grave) because of this passage:

Psalm 16:10 (KJV 1900)
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;
Neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


And rather than responding with what scholars think or what the general consensus is, please open and use the scriptures to provide the answers, as the scriptures are the authority of the children of God. My goal here is to show that there is no way to harmonize these two scriptures with the Bible if we believe that Christ died only once, at the cross in 33 A.D. But if we can see that he died twice (once before the world began and then again at the cross in 33 A.D.) then we have perfect harmony with the scriptures.

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

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Post by boatsnguitars »

So, have we come to an answer about this? It's been 2000 years. Seems Christians should be getting close to a consensus on whether Jesus rose bodily or not....
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

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Post by onewithhim »

boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:33 am So, have we come to an answer about this? It's been 2000 years. Seems Christians should be getting close to a consensus on whether Jesus rose bodily or not....
We have a consensus. Please read posts 53, 54, 55, 58 and 59. The issue is very well explained.

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #63

Post by boatsnguitars »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:28 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:33 am So, have we come to an answer about this? It's been 2000 years. Seems Christians should be getting close to a consensus on whether Jesus rose bodily or not....
We have a consensus. Please read posts 53, 54, 55, 58 and 59. The issue is very well explained.
So, you all agree that Jesus rose bodily, in decayable flesh?

Where is this flesh body now?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #64

Post by Eddie Ramos »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:30 am
Eddie Ramos wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:31 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:14 am DID JESUS DIE TWO TIMES?
1 PETER 3:18

For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit
There is no question that Christ died once for sins, but the question is, how many times did Christ die?

COULD CHRIST HAVE DIED A SECOND TIME FOR A REASON OTHER THAN FOR AS A SACRIFICE FOR SIN.

The bible is clear, the wages of sin is death. If Jesus already died to atone for sin, then the only other reason to justify his subsequent death (a second time) would biblically be his own transgression. Otherwise he would still be alive. So since it is unthinkable that Jesus was resurrected as a human, sinned himself and was subsequently put to deat for his own sin... he is

a) a 2,000 year old human in hiding on earth or somewhere else in our physical realm
b) was resurrected as an immortal spirit and returned to his Fathers side.




JW
This is yet another use of logic (not scriptures) that attempt to steer people away from what the scriptures, as one cohesive truth, teach. First, you are still quoting 1 Peter 3:18 from the NLT which (as I said before) is a paraphrase Bible at best. That verse does not say that Christ died once "for all time". That is found no where in the Greek text and is serving to confuse all those who trust in the translators rather than the inspired Holy scriptures themselves. Here is a more faithful translation:

1 Peter 3:18 (KJV 1900)
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


Now, the answer to your question, "COULD CHRIST HAVE DIED A SECOND TIME FOR A REASON OTHER THAN FOR AS A SACRIFICE FOR SIN."? You base the premise of your answer on Romans 6:23 and allude that if Christ died a second time it would have had to be for sin because of what the law of Romans 6:23 says. But that is a complete misapplication of that scripture. Romans 6:23 applies to all of mankind who are still in their sin. Romans 6:23 is the penalty for having sin, it doesn't mean that if someone died that they had to have sin.

Abel, for example, was righteous, he was saved and yet he died because his brother killed him. Does this mean that Abel died bearing his own sin? Not at all. But the only part of Abel that died was his body, not his born again soul. This is why Christ said this:

John 8:51 (KJV 1900)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 11:26 (KJV 1900)
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


So, did Christ have sin during his earthly ministry? The Bible says no.

Hebrews 4:15 (KJV 1900)
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Luke 23:4 (KJV 1900)
Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man.


So why would he die a second time then? To make manifest what he already accomplished from the foundation of the world. And to fulfill the prophecies written about him.

1 Peter 1:20 (KJV 1900)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


Matthew 26:53–54 (KJV 1900)
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?


John 19:28 (KJV 1900)
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.


Now, what happens when someone hold to the cross as the time when Christ actually paid for sins? The Bible begins to contradict their position, and contradictions in our doctrine is the Bible's way of telling us that we're on the wrong path.
We can start with one question. God established a law that without the shedding of blood (meaning death) there can be no forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9:22 (KJV 1900)
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


And before anyone thinks to say that animals were offered until Christ, that is completely incorrect, as animals were only a picture of what was required for atonement, but they themselves never did anything for sin.

Hebrews 10:4 (KJV 1900)
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hebrews 10:11 (KJV 1900)
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:


So, in order for forgiveness of sins to take place, blood had to be shed. This means that a life had to be laid down first. BUt the blood (the death) of animals could never have taken away anyone's sin. They could never have made anyone righteous. Yet so many people were indeed made righteous before the time of the cross. The sins of many people were forgiven before the cross. My question, then is, how could sins be forgiven before Christ died to pay for them, at the time of the cross in 33 A.D., without Christ violating his own law of Hebrews 9:22? Well, God gives us the answer.

Matthew 25:34 (KJV 1900)
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV 1900)
For we which have believed do enter into rest (this is salvation), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


Hebrews 9:25–26 (KJV 1900)
Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared (was made fest) to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Christ's manifestation was for the purpose of demonstrating how he paid for sins (or put away our sins) by his sacrifice. And there are many more contradictions that anyone will face if they hold to atonement at the time of the cross rather than at the world's foundation. I'll list them here in closing, but they can be discussed anytime.

· How did Christ receive the name of the "Son of God"? Romans 1:4 (KJV) And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by (meaning, through) the resurrection from the dead:
· How then could he be called the Son of God before dying on the cross? Matthew 16:16 (KJV) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Christ was indeed declared to be the son of God, but is was through his resurrection from the dead. So, the fact that he was called by that name even before his birth, shows us that he had already died and rose again before the world began. SO, at anytime thereafter, he could rightfully be called the Son of God. And thus we have perfect harmony with the scriptures.

· Were the Old Testament elect of God saved by grace, or did grace only come after the cross? The Bible tells us that grace came by Christ. John 1:17 (KJV 1900) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Yet when we look, we find that Noah and Moses (among others) were saved by grace.
Genesis 6:8 (KJV) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Exodus 33:17 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
Grace did indeed come by Christ, but not at the cross of 33 A.D. but before the world began. This is how the Old Testament saints could find grace. And thus we have perfect harmony with the scriptures.

· Was Christ the first to rise from the dead? Revelation 1:5 (KJV) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Colossians 1:18 (KJV) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence (be first).
· Why then do we read of 6 other people being raised to life BEFORE Christ went to the cross? (3 of them were raised by Christ himself). John 11:43-44 (KJV) And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. But again, when we can see that Christ died and rose again from the foundation of the world, then he certainly is the firstbegotten from the dead, rather than the 7th if you look to the cross. And thus we have perfect harmony with the scriptures.

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #65

Post by Eddie Ramos »

boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:39 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:28 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:33 am So, have we come to an answer about this? It's been 2000 years. Seems Christians should be getting close to a consensus on whether Jesus rose bodily or not....
We have a consensus. Please read posts 53, 54, 55, 58 and 59. The issue is very well explained.
So, you all agree that Jesus rose bodily, in decayable flesh?

Where is this flesh body now?
Jesus indeed rose bodily. It was the exact same body he died in. He rose this way in order to show that death could not hold him.

Acts 2:24 (KJV 1900)
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.


If Christ's body never came out of the grave, as JW's believe, then death still has hold on him, which is a violation of the scriptures.
This is why Christ made it a point to bring attention to the body that had the same scars he died with. So, this wasn't even a glorified body, but the same body flesh and blood he died in.

Luke 24:36–40 (KJV 1900)
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? (thoughts of Christ being a spirit) 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.


Sadly, the doctrine of Christ's body raising as a spirit demonstrates the same blindness to the truth that the rejection of Christ himself being JEHOVAH God does. Christ had the same body until the time he ascended into heaven. It was at that point that he changed into his spiritual body, typifying what will take place at the catching up of the saints in the last day.

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #66

Post by boatsnguitars »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:13 pm Christ had the same body until the time he ascended into heaven. It was at that point that he changed into his spiritual body, typifying what will take place at the catching up of the saints in the last day.
Where is that body now? The bones?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #67

Post by Eddie Ramos »

boatsnguitars wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:34 am
Eddie Ramos wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:13 pm Christ had the same body until the time he ascended into heaven. It was at that point that he changed into his spiritual body, typifying what will take place at the catching up of the saints in the last day.
Where is that body now? The bones?
When Christ rose from the dead in his same physical body, he ascended up to heaven 40 days later. Whenever the Bible talks about a body going into heaven, it undergoes a change, a transformation, if you will, where the corruptible earthly body of flesh and bones, transforms into a spiritual body, of which, we're norepinephrine given too much information about in the Bible, but we do know that this incorruptible spiritual body, is an actual body indeed.

Job records the resurrection of the saints this way:

Job 19:25-26 (KJV)
For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:


The transformation of the corruptible body into its incorruptible body, for those who are changed while they are still alive (like Christ and Enoch and Elijah), means that they don't actually die in order to be changed.

Hebrews 11:5 (KJV) 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

So this miraculous change that takes place doesn't mean that this physical body is left somewhere and another body is inhabited, it means that it's changed from one body to another.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV) 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #68

Post by onewithhim »

boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:39 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:28 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:33 am So, have we come to an answer about this? It's been 2000 years. Seems Christians should be getting close to a consensus on whether Jesus rose bodily or not....
We have a consensus. Please read posts 53, 54, 55, 58 and 59. The issue is very well explained.
So, you all agree that Jesus rose bodily, in decayable flesh?

Where is this flesh body now?
How can you say that when we have been saying that he was resurrected with a spirit body? Do you actually read our posts?

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #69

Post by historia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:52 am
the pagans at the time of the resurrection had zero knowledge of the facts and wrote (if not from a cultural perspective from a religious one ) a truckload of garbage.
Okay, but you're running well past my point here, which again was this simple observation:
historia wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:16 am
To a first-century Jew or pagan, "resurrection" meant a return to bodily life.
You (post #49) and onewithhim (post #59) have already acknowledged that Jews at the time understood "resurrection" to mean a return to bodily life. As it happens, pagans also knew what "resurrection" meant (post #33), they just didn't generally believe in it. Further still, the early Church Fathers and the Rabbis also understood "resurrection" to mean a return to bodily life.

So, pretty much everyone before, during, and after the writing of the New Testament -- whether they were a Jew, a Christian, or even a pagan -- understood that "resurrection" referred to someone coming back to physical, bodily life. That's simply what that term meant.

I feel like we should all be able to agree on that, right?
historia wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:16 am
If an in depth analysis established every single available pagan text in existence pointed to the word resurrection meaning coming back from Mars as a goldfish, that might be interesting from a cultural point of view but that would have absolutely no bearing on religious TRUTH in general and have **zero bearing on what happened to Christ**.
Let's go with this example. Let's say there was a term in koine Greek that meant "coming back from Mars as a goldfish." Would the early Christians have used that term to describe what happened to Jesus after his death? Clearly not, since that doesn't reflect what they believed about Jesus.

Likewise, if the early Christians believed Jesus became a spirit after he died, they wouldn't have used the term "resurrection" to describe that either. "Resurrection" refers to coming back to physical, bodily life, and so wouldn't reflect what they believed about Jesus.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:27 am
Given human nature and the limitations of language, dealing with abstract or novel ideas was never going to be easy
But again, the belief that Jesus became a spirit after he died would not have been a "novel" or "abstract" idea to first-century audiences. That was a perfectly understandable, and even acceptable, belief within Pharisaic Judaism.

The early Christians wouldn't need to come up with new terms or need to redefine existing terms to articulate that idea, either. They could have just said "Jesus became a spirit." Easy!

So either one of two things is true here: (a) the New Testament authors used the term "resurrection" in a completely different way from everyone else before, during, and after them, including later Christians, or (b) your interpretation of Paul and other New Testament authors is wrong.

All things being equal, we would have to suspect that (b) is more likely the case.

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Re: WHEN DID CHRIST GO INTO HELL?

Post #70

Post by JehovahsWitness »

historia wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:13 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:52 am
the pagans at the time of the resurrection had zero knowledge of the facts and wrote (if not from a cultural perspective from a religious one ) a truckload of garbage.
Okay, but you're running well past my point here, which again was this simple observation:
historia wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:16 am
To a first-century Jew or pagan, "resurrection" meant a return to bodily life.
You (post #49) and onewithhim (post #59) have already acknowledged that Jews at the time understood "resurrection" to mean a return to bodily life. As it happens, pagans also knew what "resurrection" meant (post #33), they just didn't generally believe in it. Further still, the early Church Fathers and the Rabbis also understood "resurrection" to mean a return to bodily life.

So, pretty much everyone before, during, and after the writing of the New Testament -- whether they were a Jew, a Christian, or even a pagan -- understood that "resurrection" referred to someone coming back to physical, bodily life. That's simply what that term meant.

I feel like we should all be able to agree on that, right?
historia wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:16 am
If an in depth analysis established every single available pagan text in existence pointed to the word resurrection meaning coming back from Mars as a goldfish, that might be interesting from a cultural point of view but that would have absolutely no bearing on religious TRUTH in general and have **zero bearing on what happened to Christ**.
Let's go with this example. Let's say there was a term in koine Greek that meant "coming back from Mars as a goldfish." Would the early Christians have used that term to describe what happened to Jesus after his death? Clearly not, since that doesn't reflect what they believed about Jesus.

Likewise, if the early Christians believed Jesus became a spirit after he died, they wouldn't have used the term "resurrection" to describe that either. "Resurrection" refers to coming back to physical, bodily life, and so wouldn't reflect what they believed about Jesus.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:27 am
Given human nature and the limitations of language, dealing with abstract or novel ideas was never going to be easy
But again, the belief that Jesus became a spirit after he died would not have been a "novel" or "abstract" idea to first-century audiences. That was a perfectly understandable, and even acceptable, belief within Pharisaic Judaism.

The early Christians wouldn't need to come up with new terms or need to redefine existing terms to articulate that idea, either. They could have just said "Jesus became a spirit." Easy!

So either one of two things is true here: (a) the New Testament authors used the term "resurrection" in a completely different way from everyone else before, during, and after them, including later Christians, or (b) your interpretation of Paul and other New Testament authors is wrong.

All things being equal, we would have to suspect that (b) is more likely the case.
Historia, I feel the points you raise here have been addressed in my two subsequent posts POST #54 (They could have just said "Jesus became a spirit." )
viewtopic.php?p=1114971#p1114971

and POST #55 (Would the early Christians have used that term to describe what happened to Jesus after his death? Clearly not, since that doesn't reflect what they believed about Jesus.).

viewtopic.php?p=1114973#p1114973


...Did you read them?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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