Is Christianity homophobic?

[AgnosticBoy]

Christians are often accused of being homophobic. So then I question why do people call themselves Christians in this day and age. I've searched the internet for a response. Of course, there are those Christians that try to make a case that homosexuality is not condemned by the Bible. But in this thread, I want to focus on those Christians that believe that being homosexual or engaging in same-sex behavior is wrong.

Here's one perspective I've found:

By Oxford Languages’ definition, homophobia can be as simple as a dislike for or as strong as a prejudice toward LGBT+ community members. While the word “phobia” implies a fear, homophobia has been used to describe everything from refusing to make a cake for a homosexual wedding to death penalties for homosexuals.

Christians are often accused of homophobia, often specifically because we stand for God’s holy design of sexual relations: one man and one woman united in marriage. It is never wrong for Christians to make a stand for biblical principle

However, true homophobia––prejudice against or hatred of homosexuals––is also sin. Prejudice is never biblical. We are never called to hatred but to love others as Christ loved us. Christians should not condone the homosexual lifestyle, but they should also not hate, degrade or condescend to those who identify as homosexual.

Source: https://www.collegianonline.com/2021/03 ... omophobic/

If I'm understanding correctly, it seems the author is trying to make a distinction between disagreeing with homosexuality and "prejudice and hatred of homosexuals". In another place, the author also refers to homophobia as a "fear".

For debate:
1. Is the author's distinction correct? Does 'homophobia' involve any type of belief or action (e.g. simply saying that it is wrong) that goes against homosexuality? Or does it just involve "hatred and prejudice"?

2. Is it even possible to believe that homosexuality is wrong but not to hate it or be prejudiced towards it?

[bjs1]

1. Is the author's distinction correct? Does 'homophobia' involve any type of belief or action (e.g. simply saying that it is wrong) that goes against homosexuality? Or does it just involve "hatred and prejudice"?

The author presented the most common view I have encountered among Christians in real life.

As for the meaning of the term homophobia: words have the meaning we give them. I can remember a time when it meant fear, anger or prejudice. Today, I have often heard it applied to any negative comment about homosexuality.

There is a reasonable difference between fear and disagreement. Accepting more nuance and complexity in the way people see the world would be a good thing, but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

2. Is it even possible to believe that homosexuality is wrong but not to hate it or be prejudiced towards it?

I think so. We could take homosexual actions out of the equation and replace it with another action Christians might think of as a sin. For instance, my daughter told me a lie last week. I think that lying is wrong. I still love my daughter. Since I love someone who does something wrong, it seems reasonable that most people could love someone who has does things they think are wrong.

[boatsnguitars]

It seems you are. What do you think happens if your views above get their way?

What do you mean?

the lines of yours I quoted. Extend the logic if they were put in action and men were playing in women sport. What would happen?

We'd realize sports are absurd and unnecessary and only feed a base instinct in fragile male egos?

Are you a misandrist?

No, but it's an interesting question. What would you call someone who recognizes the great achievements of men, while acknowledging that men commit about 95% of violent crimes, have been almost solely responsible for all the wars in history, are socially conditioned to be toxic (in the sense that misogyny is often encouraged, or seeking therapy is discouraged, or traditionally having sensitivities or even feminine characteristics is considered determinantal to the very survival of our species)?

I don't hate men, nor do I elevate them to some unique status. It's a Man's world not because they've earned it but because they've taken it. We get on this forum almost every day complaining about the Government, Religion, Corporations, etc. and 99% of who we are talking about is Men.
That said, women are homo sapiens, too, and therefore, as Apes, have many of the traits of Men. Many women are like Men (many Men like women - as we've learned in our many discussions regarding gender, it's fluid.)

So, forgive me for not worshipping at Man's collective foot. I don't think all of our Institutions, or actions have been honorable, and it seems to take way too long for Men to change. Look how long it took slavery to be abolished.

Let me ask you, when you are bemoaning the evils of the world, who are you mostly talking about? Men or women?
If women, do you acknowledge they don't have an ounce of power compared to the tons of power men have? If you want to put all the blame on women, or Liberal "Soy Boys", you are blaming the victims of Men.

Returning to the OP, I think you should lean into what you clearly believe: That homosexuality and Transgenderism is a sin and you fear that they harm society. You can embrace your homophobia, and still feel free to practice your Religion in full.
I am not claiming you should be homophobic, quite the opposite, but I don't think we do anyone of us any favors if we try to tip toe around the issue. You clearly don't like homosexuality or Transgenderism - and you've said it's because you are a Christian.

Ergo, the answer to the OP is a resounding: "Yes, the Bible is homophobic."

To the Mod: i don't say this in anger, or hot rhetoric. I am calling a spade a spade. If one is concerned about (afraid of) the impact of homosexuality to society, or the individual, that is the defeinition of homophobia. It has further come to be used as "mis-homosexual" (as misogyny), that is, the dislike of homosexuality.

The OP has a clear question. The Bible has a clear statement on the issue. Christians have been very clear that they derive their morality from the Bible. This is not rocket surgery.

The real question is "When will Christians stop being homophobic?"

[otseng]

It's a shame people like you exist.

Using a Dr. Who line to defend ones bigotry and ignorance is the sign of an idiot

but you as a Christian are a bigot towards homosexuality because of your religious beliefs. You are claiming you are justified in your bigotry because of the Bible.

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[Wootah]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #52]

I disagree with about all you have said.

I firmly believe men only do anything to try and please women. Evolutionarily speaking the tyrant is only trying to impress some woman.

Men are like rocks and women are like levers. So who has the power really? It's dynamic.

For me, literally for me, I have found the only way out of that dynamic has been to turn my back on it. Focus on my wife alone and our life together alone.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #52]

I disagree with about all you have said.

I firmly believe men only do anything to try and please women. Evolutionarily speaking the tyrant is only trying to impress some woman.

Men are like rocks and women are like levers. So who has the power really? It's dynamic.

For me, literally for me, I have found the only way out of that dynamic has been to turn my back on it. Focus on my wife alone and our life together alone.

Wow, what a completely reductionist view of your God's creativity and of Evolution. Somehow you've found a way to reduce all of it to your personal libido.

But, we are clearly not going to find common ground. I am trying to talk about objective facts, and you are trying to express your personal opinion as if the two are the same.

So, I'm out. I'm not going to be your therapist as you work through this, but I wish you all the best.

(Mods, I know we aren't supposed to get personal, but what am I supposed to do when someone is arguing from their deep, singular, personal belief? I'm trying to address what I believe is his error, and it does seem to be a personal problem on his part. Homophobia, misogyny, toxic masculinity, etc. - we can talk about them in general terms, but he is strictly reducing this to his personal belief and actions. Hence, why I am removing my self from the conversation).


So, to recap:

1. Homophobia is the hatred or fear of Homosexuality. If a book, person, religion, organization, etc. expresses hatred for Homosexuality, it is by definition Homophobic.
2. The Bible (OT and NT) - is the foundation for Christians, and the Bible expresses hatred for homosexuality.
C: Therefore, Christianity is homophobic.

The push back from Christians is that they want to acknowledge their hatred for homosexuality, but not be called homophobic. That's their problem to wrestle with, not ours.

[Purple Knight]

1. Homophobia is the hatred or fear of Homosexuality. If a book, person, religion, organization, etc. expresses hatred for Homosexuality, it is by definition Homophobic.

Christians squeak by then, because if they're doing what the book tells them, they don't hate anybody. They don't even hate homosexuality; they just think it's a sin (the act, not the inclination).

If the question is whether the Bible teaches not to do a heck of a lot of things people in modern day think they should be allowed to do, yeah, of course it does.

Noting that there are still Jews after thousands of years while every time a society becomes extremely free, it crumbles, seemingly in response. It might actually be that the notion that you're not hurting somebody unless you're hitting him is a childish and incomplete one, and freedom shouldn't go as far as we take it.

Case in point, it may be that male-male pairs outcompete inferior male-female pairs, not only because they have two stronger males which expands the work they can compete successfully at, but because most times the male-male pair does not have to support a child. If this is the case, society can either 1) accept population collapse for the sake of morality 2) ban homosexuality or 3) find some other way to address the issue.

[boatsnguitars]

1. Homophobia is the hatred or fear of Homosexuality. If a book, person, religion, organization, etc. expresses hatred for Homosexuality, it is by definition Homophobic.

Christians squeak by then, because if they're doing what the book tells them, they don't hate anybody. They don't even hate homosexuality; they just think it's a sin (the act, not the inclination).

If the question is whether the Bible teaches not to do a heck of a lot of things people in modern day think they should be allowed to do, yeah, of course it does.

Noting that there are still Jews after thousands of years while every time a society becomes extremely free, it crumbles, seemingly in response. It might actually be that the notion that you're not hurting somebody unless you're hitting him is a childish and incomplete one, and freedom shouldn't go as far as we take it.

Case in point, it may be that male-male pairs outcompete inferior male-female pairs, not only because they have two stronger males which expands the work they can compete successfully at, but because most times the male-male pair does not have to support a child. If this is the case, society can either 1) accept population collapse for the sake of morality 2) ban homosexuality or 3) find some other way to address the issue.

I'm not convinced. Where does homophobia come from, among Christians?

Why Is Homosexuality Wrong

With every sin there are multiple levels of why it's offensive to God and to be avoided. The simplest is clearly to say the Bible says it is. And we should start there; and if we can go deeper, that's good.

I think it's implied clearly and spoken clearly in Romans 1:24-29 that homosexuality is wrong and to be avoided. And I think Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 lists a very unusual phrase about homosexuality where he says, "Those who do such things"—and he lists it along with greed and covetousness and other sins, so it's not unique by itself in this—"those who do such things will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/ ... lity-wrong

It's black-and-white. It's not up to interpretation, nor does the Bible think homosexuals are good people.

Let's try something else.

Is the Bible "Covetphobic" (hates covetousness)? Is the Bible "Greedphobic" (hates greed)?
I think it would be a resounding "yes" from everyone. Where would Christians get the idea? In the Bible where it talks about how bad greedy and covetous people are. Christians would be proud to announce their opposition to Greed. They'd be quick to say, "See, the Bible is a Good Book! It's against Greed! It's against greedy people! Greedy people can't get into Heaven - they aren't worthy of God's grace! Don't be Greedy! Let's not have institutions that take billions of dollars from people, only to hoard it in the form of art, gold, etc.... Christians believe that you should give all your money to help people and only take what you need. Christians believe we should use this guidance in our own lives, and some even believe we should vote for people who will limit the negative effects of greed."

Now, imagine if everyone generally hated homosexuality - like many did about 1000 years ago - swap out "greed" and insert "homosexuality" and you'll see it's basically the same.

The only difference is that most people don't agree with the Bible on Homosexuality, so Christians can't crow about it. They have to dance around it.

[Purple Knight]

Is the Bible "Covetphobic" (hates covetousness)? Is the Bible "Greedphobic" (hates greed)?

That's why I said Christians squeak by. A lot of them probably are homophobic and use Christianity to justify it, but if you just want to look at the teachings, they're not supposed to hate anybody for anything, ever. They're supposed to forgive everything, love their enemies, and love the sinner. They're also not supposed to judge anyone for anything which I find to be impossible in this exact scenario and I've said so. See?

For example, let's say I have the gay inclination and I see fifteen men lying on the ground having an orgy, which in context of what the Bible says is wrong. They ask me to join them. Now, if I abdicate any sort of judgment whatsoever, without cognitive dissonance I simply accept the invitation because I am not cognizant of the fact that what they are doing is wrong. If I am expected to say no, I have to have that understanding: They are doing something wrong and I should not join them. I can be humble about that understanding and accept the possibility that I may be wrong about what's going on somehow, but I can't just not see the wrongness of the act.

This is about how logically impossible I find it not to judge people. I have to use my judgment. I have to say, "That which they are doing is wrong," in order that I can choose not to do it.

And yet the Bible tells Christians not to judge people so if they actually follow that (I think it's impossible without cognitive dissonance) then they're not hating or -phobic of anyone.

They think the behaviour is wrong which probably should count, but due to some weasel definitionalism from the people defining the term homophobia, it doesn't. Not without that emotional charge, which Christian teachings prohibit. Due to the same admittedly ridiculous loophole, I can believe it's immoral to be Black or Asian and not be a racist unless I believe they're inferior.

[boatsnguitars]

Is the Bible "Covetphobic" (hates covetousness)? Is the Bible "Greedphobic" (hates greed)?

That's why I said Christians squeak by. A lot of them probably are homophobic and use Christianity to justify it, but if you just want to look at the teachings, they're not supposed to hate anybody for anything, ever. They're supposed to forgive everything, love their enemies, and love the sinner. They're also not supposed to judge anyone for anything which I find to be impossible in this exact scenario and I've said so. See?

For example, let's say I have the gay inclination and I see fifteen men lying on the ground having an orgy, which in context of what the Bible says is wrong. They ask me to join them. Now, if I abdicate any sort of judgment whatsoever, without cognitive dissonance I simply accept the invitation because I am not cognizant of the fact that what they are doing is wrong. If I am expected to say no, I have to have that understanding: They are doing something wrong and I should not join them. I can be humble about that understanding and accept the possibility that I may be wrong about what's going on somehow, but I can't just not see the wrongness of the act.

This is about how logically impossible I find it not to judge people. I have to use my judgment. I have to say, "That which they are doing is wrong," in order that I can choose not to do it.

And yet the Bible tells Christians not to judge people so if they actually follow that (I think it's impossible without cognitive dissonance) then they're not hating or -phobic of anyone.

They think the behaviour is wrong which probably should count, but due to some weasel definitionalism from the people defining the term homophobia, it doesn't. Not without that emotional charge, which Christian teachings prohibit. Due to the same admittedly ridiculous loophole, I can believe it's immoral to be Black or Asian and not be a racist unless I believe they're inferior.

You lost me. Why wouldn't you join in an orgy? Sounds fun.

[Purple Knight]

You lost me. Why wouldn't you join in an orgy? Sounds fun.

If I thought homosexuality was wrong I wouldn't.

So I have to at least notice that what they are doing is wrong. I can't be 100% nonjudgmental. If the Bible wants me to say no to that gay orgy, I have to judge the people inviting me to it, at least a little.

That's why I say the teaching to be totally nonjudgmental and love everybody is a little bit... impossible. Yet it is the teaching and if they somehow achieve it, they're not hating anybody, so they squeak by as not being homophobic.