Grace acting in real life

[Wootah]

...
All of it came from grace, the invisible hand of God on the market.

I challenge you to show you speak truth in this claim.

Grace is the concept in Christianity of a free gift from God. Now even if you can't see God you might be able to see the free gifts in your life.

Examples:

* In Christianity God dying for our sins means we don't have to do anything to go to heaven apart from accepting the gift.

But this process of grace is everywhere:

* We are born into our families and countries. Who can honestly say they deserve where they are born?

* Evolution - we don't do anything to evolve, it's a random mutation acting on natural selection.

* The sun's light.

This leads us to free markets, which I was challenged on.

Basically, there is nothing governments or you need or can do to do to ensure we all get richer other than enforce basic property rights and thereafter get out of the way and allow the market to transform our lives.

Does anyone want to debate the concept of grace versus works in relation to Christianity, reality, markets, and evolution?

[JoeyKnothead]

I don't care what you find inspiring, I seek to determine if your challenged claims can be shown to be truthful

OK - evolution is something that we can't affect. It is random mutations and natural selection.

So what we are is a gift from evolution. Yes or No?

I'm unsure what evolution has to do with your many previously challenged claims.

Face it, you can't show those claims are truth, and just can't come to disavow those claims you, ya know, made but can't show are truth.

The liar lies and the preacher preaches.

[TRANSPONDER]

I don't care what you find inspiring, I seek to determine if your challenged claims can be shown to be truthful

OK - evolution is something that we can't affect. It is random mutations and natural selection.

So what we are is a gift from evolution. Yes or No?

Pretty much when you put it that way. In fact evolution is something that critters and conditions do affect. Humans have been doing it for thousands of years. It is called 'breeding'. The crops and fruits we have are evolved by us by our selection, not 'natural'.

is that a gift? I suppose it is? Is life a gift? We instinctively think it is, because we cling to it. But it has so much to offer, because we have a brain.

So, I'll take the gifts, thankfully, without seeing a god involved in that. You would have to prove there was one, and which one, before I would consider directing my thanks that way.

[brunumb]

I don't care what you find inspiring, I seek to determine if your challenged claims can be shown to be truthful

OK - evolution is something that we can't affect. It is random mutations and natural selection.

So what we are is a gift from evolution. Yes or No?

No. We are an outcome of the evolutionary process.

[JoeyKnothead]

In Christianity God dying for our sins means we don't have to do anything to go to heaven apart from accepting the gift.

Except when you read the fine print there are strings attached beyond just saying "thanks for the gift". If you don't comply, you burn forever. So, not really a gift.

It is more like 'you are in hell now and will burn in hell later' do you want to have a relationship with God and get out of that?

It's more like you make these claims regarding Hell, and God, but you never show either one to actually exist.

I can't escape the idea that you're wanting folks to assume these things exist so you can set in to preaching about them.

[Wootah]

I don't care what you find inspiring, I seek to determine if your challenged claims can be shown to be truthful

OK - evolution is something that we can't affect. It is random mutations and natural selection.

So what we are is a gift from evolution. Yes or No?

No. We are an outcome of the evolutionary process.

Yes, I can see that working at a family dinner. I am not going to thank you guys for raising me. I am an outcome of an evolutionary process.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Wootah in post #1

Basically, there is nothing governments or you need or can do to do to ensure we all get richer other than enforce basic property rights and thereafter get out of the way and allow the market to transform our lives.

Oh, the market transforms lives all right----poverty wages.....price gouging.....large private corporations which pay little or nothing in taxes subsidized with millions of public dollars while public education is starved and health care becomes so expensive that people have to choose between seeing a doctor and paying the bills.....jobs outsourced to foreign shores where workers have no protections......

.....the blessings of the free market are many.

[JoeyKnothead]

I don't care what you find inspiring, I seek to determine if your challenged claims can be shown to be truthful

OK - evolution is something that we can't affect. It is random mutations and natural selection.

So what we are is a gift from evolution. Yes or No?

No. We are an outcome of the evolutionary process.

Yes, I can see that working at a family dinner. I am not going to thank you guys for raising me. I am an outcome of an evolutionary process.

See how the theist is so, so adroit at changing the conversation away from supporting his own claims.

Truly a master class here in diversion masquerading as debate.

[brunumb]

I don't care what you find inspiring, I seek to determine if your challenged claims can be shown to be truthful

OK - evolution is something that we can't affect. It is random mutations and natural selection.

So what we are is a gift from evolution. Yes or No?

No. We are an outcome of the evolutionary process.

Yes, I can see that working at a family dinner. I am not going to thank you guys for raising me. I am an outcome of an evolutionary process.

Non sequitur, or just plain nonsense. I can thank my family for everything they have done for me, but not some imaginary being that had nothing to do with it. That aside, human beings are nevertheless an outcome of an evolutionary process.

[TRANSPONDER]

I don't care what you find inspiring, I seek to determine if your challenged claims can be shown to be truthful

OK - evolution is something that we can't affect. It is random mutations and natural selection.

So what we are is a gift from evolution. Yes or No?

No. We are an outcome of the evolutionary process.

Yes, I can see that working at a family dinner. I am not going to thank you guys for raising me. I am an outcome of an evolutionary process.

You are determined not to listen or understand, but just push it away. I said 'we have a brain'. I also said we breed animals and crops; we beat evolution at its' own game.

We have society, technology and ethics. It's beyond what evolution alone did. So, yes, you can know that evolution is real, but also your family can be thanked for nurture.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #16]

What do you think was the cause of the greatest level of prosperity in history for the greatest number of people?