Grace acting in real life

[Wootah]

...
All of it came from grace, the invisible hand of God on the market.

I challenge you to show you speak truth in this claim.

Grace is the concept in Christianity of a free gift from God. Now even if you can't see God you might be able to see the free gifts in your life.

Examples:

* In Christianity God dying for our sins means we don't have to do anything to go to heaven apart from accepting the gift.

But this process of grace is everywhere:

* We are born into our families and countries. Who can honestly say they deserve where they are born?

* Evolution - we don't do anything to evolve, it's a random mutation acting on natural selection.

* The sun's light.

This leads us to free markets, which I was challenged on.

Basically, there is nothing governments or you need or can do to do to ensure we all get richer other than enforce basic property rights and thereafter get out of the way and allow the market to transform our lives.

Does anyone want to debate the concept of grace versus works in relation to Christianity, reality, markets, and evolution?

[Wootah]

This space will be a pointer to any notes I take.

viewtopic.php?p=1115291#p1115291

[JoeyKnothead]

...
All of it came from grace, the invisible hand of God on the market.

I challenge you to show you speak truth in this claim.

Grace is the concept in Christianity of a free gift from God. Now even if you can't see God you might be able to see the free gifts in your life.

Examples:

* In Christianity God dying for our sins means we don't have to do anything to go to heaven apart from accepting the gift.

I challenge you to show a god has given us anything.

But this process of grace is everywhere:

* We are born into our families and countries. Who can honestly say they deserve where they are born?

* Evolution - we don't do anything to evolve, it's a random mutation acting on natural selection.

* The sun's light.

I challenge you to show a god's involved in any of that.

This leads us to free markets, which I was challenged on.

Basically, there is nothing governments or you need or can do to do to ensure we all get richer other than enforce basic property rights and thereafter get out of the way and allow the market to transform our lives.

I challenge you to show a god's involved in this stuff.

Does anyone want to debate the concept of grace versus works in relation to Christianity, reality, markets, and evolution?

Me! Me! Pick me!

I challenge you to show anything you've posted here is influenced by a god.

The preaching's the easy part. It's the putting truth to it where the problems start.

[brunumb]

In Christianity God dying for our sins means we don't have to do anything to go to heaven apart from accepting the gift.

Except when you read the fine print there are strings attached beyond just saying "thanks for the gift". If you don't comply, you burn forever. So, not really a gift.

[Wootah]

In Christianity God dying for our sins means we don't have to do anything to go to heaven apart from accepting the gift.

Except when you read the fine print there are strings attached beyond just saying "thanks for the gift". If you don't comply, you burn forever. So, not really a gift.

It is more like 'you are in hell now and will burn in hell later' do you want to have a relationship with God and get out of that?

[brunumb]

We are born into our families and countries. Who can honestly say they deserve where they are born?

By the grace of God we get the free gift of being born into a family (or no family) where there is no food or shelter and you die before tour first birthday. Yes, who deserves that?

[brunumb]

In Christianity God dying for our sins means we don't have to do anything to go to heaven apart from accepting the gift.

Except when you read the fine print there are strings attached beyond just saying "thanks for the gift". If you don't comply, you burn forever. So, not really a gift.

It is more like 'you are in hell now and will burn in hell later' do you want to have a relationship with God and get out of that?

I got a free gift. Why do I need a relationship as well?

[Wootah]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #3]

The topic is grace in real life. Do you see grace in real life do you accept it?

I wrote this in my notes: Grace is the prime mover in everything that we respond to.

Maybe a bit too hyperbolic because love is behind grace but still I like it.

My challenge is to show that these good things don't need our involvement, especially in the terms of markets.

God is always on faith.

But I find it deeply inspiring to see grace in so many places and that my religions is the religion of grace.

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #3]

The topic is grace in real life. Do you see grace in real life do you accept it?

I'm aware of the topic and have challenged your various claims about it.

If you're just here to preach, I'll just dip out everytime the collection plate comes my way.

I wrote this in my notes:

Unless your notes can support your challenged claims they're useless to me.

Grace is the prime mover in everything that we respond to.

Well isn't that special.

Maybe a bit too hyperbolic because love is behind grace but still I like it.

I don't care what you like.

I seek to determine if your challenged claims are true and factual

My challenge is to show that these good things don't need our involvement, especially in the terms of markets.

Your challenge is thst some folks are gonna think you're trying to avoid responsibility for your challenged claims.

God is always on faith.

Facts ain't.

Can you show your challenged claimss are facts?

But I find it deeply inspiring to see grace in so many places and that my religions is the religion of grace.

I don't care what you find inspiring, I seek to determine if your challenged claims can be shown to be truthful

The liar lies and the preacher preaches.

[Wootah]

I don't care what you find inspiring, I seek to determine if your challenged claims can be shown to be truthful

OK - evolution is something that we can't affect. It is random mutations and natural selection.

So what we are is a gift from evolution. Yes or No?