Is God's Existence Meaningful?

[boatsnguitars]

I suspect that if you can do anything you want then everything is meaningless.

Is God's Existence Meaningful? Are we meaningful to God?

Wootah clearly indicates that if we have Omni-Powers, or complete freedom to do what we want, this would be a meaningless existence. In fact, "everything" would be menaingless, even other people's lives.

So, how does this apply to God? And what is God's purpose? What reason does God have to 'get up in the morning'?

God has already experienced the life of everyone alive, and has lived, with perfect knowledge ever nanosecond in all history, and for all eternity into the future. There is literally nothing God is waiting to see. God isn't curious, isn't waiting to see what happens at Sally's dance recital, or with Ukraine, or with ChatGPT.

It's all known to God. No challenges for his perfect mind, no secrets to discover, no souls to meet.

We don't know how God happened to be this torturous, boring and ridiculous character, but it's what Theists claim exists.

How is this meaningful? How do we have meaning just because a God exists? What does Theism offer us? It sounds like an eternity of being absorbed into a tragic Borg with no goal other than to collect souls to praise it.

Atheism, at least, offers an escape from an eternity of boredom.

[brunumb]

...
And you reckon that will still be the same after millions and millions of years? Faith lets one believe the most ridiculous things.

And you seem to have lot of faith in your beliefs.

But yes, I believe eternal life will not be boring. I believe it is something like this:

for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Romans 14:17

But, I think it is interesting how for many life is boring, if not constantly something to do. Maybe it would be good to find peace of mind.

Peace I leave with you. My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, give I to you. Don't let your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful.
John 14:27

OK. Peace of mind might be a food thing for a thousand years, maybe a million, but then what? I don't think much thought has gone into the reality of existing forever past the comforting thought of not dying. What meaning can be had from living forever without any needs to fulfill like we experience in this earthly life?

[1213]

...What meaning can be had from living forever without any needs to fulfill like we experience in this earthly life?

Maybe that is subjective matter. If you don't see anything in there, then maybe it is fine if you don't get it. I don't know why everyone should see it the same way.

[TRANSPONDER]

...What meaning can be had from living forever without any needs to fulfill like we experience in this earthly life?

Maybe that is subjective matter. If you don't see anything in there, then maybe it is fine if you don't get it. I don't know why everyone should see it the same way.

I think because they haven't thought it through. I should like to get feedback from believers on this and a number of others, though from deconverts might be better (if they can remember, or even considered it at the time) as the Believers seem disinclined to look at it and prefer to chuck Biblequotes at us.

But I have put it here - how could a heaven even work, even given the claim that an eternity of the most perfect heavenly existence one could imagine would be bearable, and it is tempting if not entirely convincing. I'd still want an oblivion option to be reviewed every billion years. And on the whole, I'm rather thankful that atheism offers a permanent lie in with no alarm clock. What sort of life is it really to be a ball of happy plasma? That isn't even you. We don't even need to consider how one could ever be happy in a heaven where everyone who didn't get their Dogma straight were burning eternally.

Is or are any of the believers willing to even consider these points rather than just ignore it and quote John?

Or post links to Religious tractiles. That is frankly a bit close to insulting. Which decides me to give un into temptation - the ultimate explanation of what eternal life would really be like.



"But it isn't like that!" Ok then, what would it be like? I recall... ...a tract -mag (still got it somewhere) with a heavenly life rather like a 5 star hotel on the beach at Miami with everyone in antik greek cress, (gauze tunics and not much else) and a well preserved middle aged dude strumming a lute wile eyeing up a teenage American Asian combing her hair by the poolside...

Well, you gotta admit, they designed their Afterlife to tick all the boxes. Though they were unclear whether the drinks were complimentary.

Ps. I must be fair here and note that Atheists were only mentioned once. The comparison was only with dictators.

But I'm also obliged to say that the Dictators are regularly supposed to be that way because they were atheist.



but again i must be even -handed and recognize that Believers have a come -back

"You don't understand."

Sorry, I do. Faith. Faith that it makes sense and works somehow. Faithbased denial of everything that they need to. Faithclaims presented as Fact until 100% disproven and dmitted disproven, which is never admitted. The faithclaims they don't present (Islam, Hinduism) don't even get consideration.

I get it. But how do you make the case to me?

"Your choice; I make the claims and you can believe or not."

Like I say, I get it.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Yes. I've heard that one before. It is tempting not to say persuasive, to suppose than an interesting afterlife would not get boring even after fifty billion years. Yet one supposes that really after a billion years and knowing it was NEVER going to end, one might get a but antsy. It would be nice to know there was an opt - out clause, right?

If no one would ever want existence to end, there is no reason to have an opt-out clause. But it may take some faith in the promises of God and of His Son to believe that. Granted, if you come to be standing before them, that should be some pretty good evidence that they know what they are talking about (and so, that God is love, that Christ is and speaks only truth, that there truly will be no more mourning, or tears, or suffering, or death).

I don't really have much more to add than what I posted the first time around.

I don't even address the idea that this is supposing a supremely interesting afterlife, rather than one grovelling eternally to God,

You think loving someone - having praise for them in you - is grovelling? You must be basing that on an assumption that people are forced to love and praise Him, rather than that this is something true that is in their hearts.

or an eternity where one is just a mindless globe of Love -energy.

That is not my understanding. And who has ever suggested that anyone would be mindless? We have no examples of that. As for our bodies: we will have the white robe - the new body (also called a spirit body) - that has no sin(error) or death in it; that can move from energy to matter and back again, etc, the same as Christ could do after His resurrection, the same as the angels can do even now. Best of both worlds.

How is that any better than not existing?

Being mindless is your word, not anything that anyone has ever suggested. Certainly not the promise that is given from God and from His Son.

So still, I have to think that the concept of an eternal afterlife isn't really all the Believers suppose it to be.

Perhaps because you have imposed upon it your own ideas that have nothing to do with the promises that have been made?


I trust that God and His Son know what they are talking about. My own experience in life tells me that I would not be bored (as described in my previous post), and I understand that love itself produces energy. Even the fruit of the spirit that we are given - even now - includes things such as joy, love, peace.

That is of course not even factoring in the Hell - threat aspect which would require to have the mind obliterated, otherwise how could anyone enjoy heaven, knowing what was going on in hell?

I hear you. But Hell (as a place of eternal suffering) is a false doctrine. It does not factor in to eternity. Why would God leave such negativity in the universe for all eternity, as if that would not have a negative effect on the rest of creation? We live in a reality of cause and effect, action and consequence (good or bad).


But there is no such thing as a place of eternal suffering.


Peace again to you.

[TRANSPONDER]

I'm just thinking that we are reasoning creatures. A god that was reasonable would know this. Thus it would realise that an unconditional afterlife arrnaged by him without consultation is not the actions of a reasonable god, even a supremely powerful one. Thus I'd want an opt -out even if an eternal life was available. Just in case.

Ok, you don't buy a Hell. That's good; I agree. so what, then Separation? There has to be some less -good option than an afterlife equally for everyone, otherwise what price religion?

[tam]

Peace to you,

I'm just thinking that we are reasoning creatures. A god that was reasonable would know this.

Yes, but He would also know about eternity, and what that would be like for us, right? Since He is Himself eternal?

Thus it would realise that an unconditional afterlife arrnaged by him without consultation is not the actions of a reasonable god, even a supremely powerful one. Thus I'd want an opt -out even if an eternal life was available. Just in case.

No one is forced to choose eternal life.

People are invited into the Kingdom, not forced into the Kingdom.

Ok, you don't buy a Hell. That's good; I agree. so what, then Separation? There has to be some less -good option than an afterlife equally for everyone, otherwise what price religion?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'price' (of religion), but the 'less-good' option is destruction; non-existence (annihilation). The very thing you say you think you would prefer over eternity, although that preference appears to be based upon fear (fear that eternity would or could be horrible)... rather than upon truth or evidence. You have a fear of something unknown to you - but it is not unknown to God.



Peace again to you.

[TRANSPONDER]

Peace to you,

I'm just thinking that we are reasoning creatures. A god that was reasonable would know this.

Yes, but He would also know about eternity, and what that would be like for us, right? Since He is Himself eternal?

Thus it would realise that an unconditional afterlife arrnaged by him without consultation is not the actions of a reasonable god, even a supremely powerful one. Thus I'd want an opt -out even if an eternal life was available. Just in case.

No one is forced to choose eternal life.

People are invited into the Kingdom, not forced into the Kingdom.

Ok, you don't buy a Hell. That's good; I agree. so what, then Separation? There has to be some less -good option than an afterlife equally for everyone, otherwise what price religion?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'price' (of religion), but the 'less-good' option is destruction; non-existence (annihilation). The very thing you say you think you would prefer over eternity, although that preference appears to be based upon fear (fear that eternity would or could be horrible)... rather than upon truth or evidence. You have a fear of something unknown to you - but it is not unknown to God.



Peace again to you.

Sorry, a Colloquial term. I mean, if there is no hell, why do we need religion? We are all going to be saved, right?

Unless, as I say, there is some other thing to make it necessary to get on board with God, if you can find the right one. Not Hell, but something else more or less unpleasant.

And annihilation (I'm impressed, I could never spell that) is indeed something I have looked at and it doesn't bother me, i don't fear it and you can't use it to fear me into religion, no more than you can use the carrot of eternal life to persuade me into religion. Even if you could convince me what was the right one. Because i can't see one I could stick for eternity. I would demand a opt out clause just for the peace of mind without which heaven would not be bearable, even as a ball of laughing gas, without any mind that you would call your own.

Tam, you have a bit of work to do to make a case.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

I'm just thinking that we are reasoning creatures. A god that was reasonable would know this.

Yes, but He would also know about eternity, and what that would be like for us, right? Since He is Himself eternal?

Thus it would realise that an unconditional afterlife arrnaged by him without consultation is not the actions of a reasonable god, even a supremely powerful one. Thus I'd want an opt -out even if an eternal life was available. Just in case.

No one is forced to choose eternal life.

People are invited into the Kingdom, not forced into the Kingdom.

Ok, you don't buy a Hell. That's good; I agree. so what, then Separation? There has to be some less -good option than an afterlife equally for everyone, otherwise what price religion?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'price' (of religion), but the 'less-good' option is destruction; non-existence (annihilation). The very thing you say you think you would prefer over eternity, although that preference appears to be based upon fear (fear that eternity would or could be horrible)... rather than upon truth or evidence. You have a fear of something unknown to you - but it is not unknown to God.



Peace again to you.

Sorry, a Colloquial term. I mean, if there is no hell, why do we need religion? We are all going to be saved, right?

Unless, as I say, there is some other thing to make it necessary to get on board with God, if you can find the right one. Not Hell, but something else more or less unpleasant.

We are not all going to be saved, but the love and mercy of God allows for people to be invited into the Kingdom and receive eternal life even if they did not believe (even if they believed wrong)... based upon criteria other than faith. That invitation may come as a surprise to those people (just as it may come as a shock to people who believe their entrance is guaranteed, if/when they are turned away); but this is based upon love (Romans 2:14) and mercy (such as: be merciful and you will be shown mercy), and how such ones treated even a least one of the brothers of Christ (not knowingly for gain, per se, but because that is what is in them to do).

And annihilation (I'm impressed, I could never spell that) is indeed something I have looked at and it doesn't bother me, i don't fear it and you can't use it to fear me into religion, no more than you can use the carrot of eternal life to persuade me into religion.

I would not attempt to carrot or stick-fear you into religion. I, myself, am in no religion. (And I may have typed the word annihilation enough times in the many 'does hell exist' threads for it to come easily now.)

It is not about a bribe or a threat. It is about faith (not all people have it; indeed few do)... and love (which a person may have with or without faith)... and truth. I serve out of love (love for Christ, for his Father, for truth).

Even if you could convince me what was the right one. Because i can't see one I could stick for eternity.

But your view on this is extremely limited is it not? Just because you cannot see something does not mean that it cannot be.

I would demand a opt out clause just for the peace of mind without which heaven would not be bearable, even as a ball of laughing gas, without any mind that you would call your own.

OR... you could instead just ask for that peace (so that you have peace of mind) - or any other fruit of the spirit that would ease your fears and give you peace.

Tam, you have a bit of work to do to make a case.

Lol... as do you, at least if you want me to accept - based on your limited and uneducated opinion (uneducated in that you have no experience of eternity) - that eternal life would be a horrible thing.

How can a finite being tell another person what an infinite existence would be like? Would it not be better to observe an infinite being on what an infinite existence would be like?


If you are standing before God (and/or His Son) and being offered entrance into the Kingdom and eternal life, that should tell you something about them being able to keep their promises (one such promise being that there is no more suffering or mourning or death). If you refuse entrance, that is your prerogative, but I think that would be sad. Borrowing trouble that you do not know exists but are just afraid might exist; even when the evidence indicates that your fear is groundless (or how could God - an eternal being - have joy)? Still... it would be your choice, even if based upon fear and a lack of faith (when there is no reason for that lack of faith if you are seeing the promises come true right in front of your eyes).



I did not come on this thread to convince you (or anyone) that God exists (that is not within my power); but rather to offer another perspective on eternal life than the one that was being presented.



Peace again to you.

[Purple Knight]

But, I think it is interesting how for many life is boring, if not constantly something to do. Maybe it would be good to find peace of mind.

This is very close to converging with the idea of Nirvana being nothingness, a release from the cycle of death and rebirth. I don't hate it.

[brunumb]

...What meaning can be had from living forever without any needs to fulfill like we experience in this earthly life?

Maybe that is subjective matter. If you don't see anything in there, then maybe it is fine if you don't get it. I don't know why everyone should see it the same way.

So you are unable to suggest any meaning that can be had from living forever without any needs to fulfill like we experience in this earthly life? Sounds to me that your eternal life will be rather pointless then. Surely even God might get weary of your worship after a trillion years or so.