The speech of the upright!

[Bobcat]

Scripture says the words of the upright deliver them so Jesus’ was not needed for forgiveness of sin.

His death and resurrection were not to save anyone. It was His example of servitude to the Father that was needed so that those who continue in His teaching could be saved.

Jesus agrees with scripture that the words of the upright deliver them when He said;

“By your words you’ll be justified and by your words you’ll be condemned.”

“The words of the wicked are a deadly ambush, but the speech of the upright delivers them.”Proverbs 12:6

[bjs1]

[Replying to Bobcat in post #1]


I agree that the words of the upright will deliver them.

I am currently waiting to meet a single individual whose words are upright enough to deliver them. I am currently middle-aged, so I still have half my life to search for such a person. Sadly, I cannot count myself in that camp. But who knows? Maybe someday I will encounter someone who is.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Bobcat in post #1]


I agree that the words of the upright will deliver them.

I am currently waiting to meet a single individual whose words are upright enough to deliver them. I am currently middle-aged, so I still have half my life to search for such a person. Sadly, I cannot count myself in that camp. But who knows? Maybe someday I will encounter someone who is.

I may sound biased, but just what is the speech of the upright other than by telling the truth and what bis the speech of the wicked but untruth?

So when Genesis, the prophecy of Tyre, the nativities and the resurrection can be shown untrue, and the believers assert they are true, who is the upright and who the wicked?

Does God actually prefer atheists, at least as being rationalists?

(sorry if you heard this one already)



Or is it (Of course it is) ) who professes Faith is speaking right up and those who reject the Faith is the wicked.

Glad i sorted that one out.

[bjs1]

I may sound biased, but just what is the speech of the upright other than by telling the truth and what bis the speech of the wicked but untruth?

Truth is certainly a part of upright speech. I would include compassion, kindness, gentleness, self-control, patience and love as some of the other important parts of upright speech.

So when Genesis, the prophecy of Tyre, the nativities and the resurrection can be shown untrue, and the believers assert they are true, who is the upright and who the wicked?

I don’t want to derail this thread, so if you can actually show any of these to be untrue then please start a new thread to demonstrate how they are untrue.

Does God actually prefer atheists, at least as being rationalists?

I have not noticed atheists on the whole being more rational than theists, but I will not begrudge you what you have described as your bias.

[Bobcat]

[Replying to bjs1 in post #13]

This may help.

Scripture says;

“The words of the LORD are upright and all His works are truthful.”

[TRANSPONDER]

I may sound biased, but just what is the speech of the upright other than by telling the truth and what bis the speech of the wicked but untruth?

Truth is certainly a part of upright speech. I would include compassion, kindness, gentleness, self-control, patience and love as some of the other important parts of upright speech.

So when Genesis, the prophecy of Tyre, the nativities and the resurrection can be shown untrue, and the believers assert they are true, who is the upright and who the wicked?

I don’t want to derail this thread, so if you can actually show any of these to be untrue then please start a new thread to demonstrate how they are untrue.

Does God actually prefer atheists, at least as being rationalists?

I have not noticed atheists on the whole being more rational than theists, but I will not begrudge you what you have described as your bias.

I'm fine with your examples of upright speech. That is not really anything to do with religion, let alone any particular religion. Christianity, by what Paul wrote having Jesusfaith as what saves, not upright speech which Paul hints is innate in all people, with or without religion.

In other words, morals and ethics in how we communicate and act is valid but not the Christian criterion for being saved. In fact in my experience, Religion just makes decent people engage in all manner of trickery, denial, and plain nastiness in support of their Faith, so, I'm somewhat skeptical of any claim by religion to require or produce 'Upright Speech', which cynical ol' me just translates as 'saying what is approved by the religion' (whichever Dogma one happens to be in.

Agreed, I should not do a derail. I'll just say Genesis is wrong in having Light (from the sun) before the sun was made, Tyre was rebuilt and quite soon, and exists today, the nativities are dated by the events ten years (and the rulership of Archelaus) apart and the resurrections are totally contradictory.

The point about rationalism and rationality, it doesn't hurt atheism or the uprightness of speech of atheism to be based on rationalism while religious speech appears to be about maintaining the Dogma no matter what the evidence indicates.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to bjs1 in post #13]

This may help.

Scripture says;

“The words of the LORD are upright and all His works are truthful.”

Doesn't help in the least to quote scripture in support of scripture.

[bjs1]

[Replying to bjs1 in post #13]

This may help.

Scripture says;

“The words of the LORD are upright and all His works are truthful.”

I agree that the words of the LORD are upright and all His works are truthful. So, to reference the first post, the LORD did not need Jesus' death and resurrection to be forgiven.

I don't think that anyone has ever claimed that Jesus' death and resurrection were to save the Lord. So how does the fact that the Lords words are upright apply to this topic?

[bjs1]

I'm fine with your examples of upright speech. That is not really anything to do with religion, let alone any particular religion. Christianity, by what Paul wrote having Jesusfaith as what saves, not upright speech which Paul hints is innate in all people, with or without religion.

In other words, morals and ethics in how we communicate and act is valid but not the Christian criterion for being saved.

Yes, sort of. One of the fundamental doctrines of Christianity – the one I think that we have the most empirical evidence to support – is Original Sin; the belief that no one is upright. So upright speech can’t save us because we don’t have it. For those who lack upright speech (that is, all of us), then faith in Christ is the way to be saved apart from anything good that we do or say.

In fact in my experience, Religion just makes decent people engage in all manner of trickery, denial, and plain nastiness in support of their Faith, so, I'm somewhat skeptical of any claim by religion to require or produce 'Upright Speech', which cynical ol' me just translates as 'saying what is approved by the religion' (whichever Dogma one happens to be in.

Agreed, I should not do a derail. I'll just say Genesis is wrong in having Light (from the sun) before the sun was made, Tyre was rebuilt and quite soon, and exists today, the nativities are dated by the events ten years (and the rulership of Archelaus) apart and the resurrections are totally contradictory.

The point about rationalism and rationality, it doesn't hurt atheism or the uprightness of speech of atheism to be based on rationalism while religious speech appears to be about maintaining the Dogma no matter what the evidence indicates.

Again, if you can support any of these claims beyond just a pronouncement, go ahead and start a new thread on that topic.

[Wootah]

Scripture says the words of the upright deliver them so Jesus’ was not needed for forgiveness of sin.

His death and resurrection were not to save anyone. It was His example of servitude to the Father that was needed so that those who continue in His teaching could be saved.

Jesus agrees with scripture that the words of the upright deliver them when He said;

“By your words you’ll be justified and by your words you’ll be condemned.”

“The words of the wicked are a deadly ambush, but the speech of the upright delivers them.”Proverbs 12:6

Proverbs 12:6 is not talking about salvation really. A wicked person's words are generally a trap but a righteous person's words are generally something we can rely on and when we can rely on them we can rely on the person and so if ever there is a choice wise people will choose the righteous person.

Now I am not against scaling the proverb up to salvation. Speech and logos are essential to creation, God spoke creation into being and in the beginning was the Word, Jesus is the Word.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

“By your words you’ll be justified and by your words you’ll be condemned.” could mean that when I go to see God I will say I rely on Jesus saving grace and you might say I rely on my own efforts and you may find out that your words condemn you and mine save me.

[Bobcat]

[Replying to bjs1 in post #17]

If the words of the LORD are upright can’t we conclude that His words make the righteous person upright?