Is there proof or not?

[boatsnguitars]

Help me understand this.

Christians will claim they have ample evidence of the Holy Spirit, or God based on the feelings they get, or what they call evidence., or, "He'll prove himself to you when you believe.".

But, they also say God can't be tested for, and you can't prove God's existence because it would take away Free Will, or "God doesn't work that way".

These two ideas - that are probably mentioned a million times on this forum - are contradictory.

Can a Christian please explain, for once and for all, the rules on how God can be detected, but not proven, but proven and not detected, or whatever.

It makes no sense to me, but I'm an idiot, so maybe I don't get the simple logic.

[brunumb]

Person who doesn't want to believe, can always say, "it was because of some other reason".

What makes you so sure that we do not want to believe? I would love for there to be a God who will grant me eternal happiness with family and friends. But wishful thinking is not enough. My brain is unconvinced and until it is I am destined to be an unbeliever. Your God could remedy that, but it is patently clear that he doesn't care enough or that he isn't real.

[boatsnguitars]

God's influence can be seen from what He has done, or what He has promised to do. For example He made certain promises for Jews and has kept the promises.

Please be specific and demonstrate that what was done could only have been the outcome of God's involvement.

Be specific. And make sure you are very clear on why it could have only been God's actions that brought about this, and make sure you prove God Himself made this promise, not that it was claimed that God made it.

Person who doesn't want to believe, can always say, "it was because of some other reason". This is in all matters, even in the "scientific truths". People can't say anything that could not be disbelieved.

But, for example God said He will scatter Jews, if they do wrong things and He will gather them back, if they do right things.

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them; for I am Yahweh their God; but I will for their sake remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am Yahweh.'"
Leviticus 26:44-45

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

Obviously you can wave your hand and say, it was because of something else. My point is not actually to prove God, just to show one example of what would be the signs if God is real.

How do vague allusions show that God exists?

Here are how Muslims prove their God exists:

Finger Prints
“Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing” (41:21)

The finger prints system at borders, criminal investigation cells and immigration centres prove the fulfillment of this Quranic prophecy.

Pollution
“Corruption has spread on land and sea because of what men’s hands have wrought” (30:42)

One of the interpretations of the above verse of the Holy Quran is the environmental pollution, caused by human being. And that is spread both in land and sea due to our own inventions, i.e., fumes from chimneys of factories, chemical and nuclear waste, huge traffic in the cities, noise and creation of ozone hole are manifest testimonies of the fulfillment of this prophecy.

Establishment of Israel
And after him We said to the Children of Israel, ‘Dwell Ye in the promised land; and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days come, We shall bring you together out of various people.” (17:105)

Creation of Israel and gathering of Sephardic, Ashkenazi and the Jews of many other different races in Israel proves the authenticity of this prophecy and hence Quran.

Genetic Engineering
“They will alter Allah’s creation.” (4:120)

The holy Quran has prophesied the plastic surgery, genetic engineering and cloning in this short and concise sentence.

Roads in Mountains
“And when the mountains are made to move.” (81:4)

Centuries before the invention of dynamite, the holy Quran prophesied the blowing up and moving of the mountains.

New Transport Systems
“And when the she-camels, ten months pregnant are abandoned.” (81:5)“And He has created horses and mules and asses that you may ride them, and as a source of beauty. And He will create what you do not yet know.” (16:9)

As we know people, specially those living in deserts, have now abandoned camels and other animals for travelling. But this prophecy of invention and emergence of new transport systems is on-going as we witness new and faster modes of transportation emerging all the time.

Zoo
“And when the wild beasts are gathered together.” (81:6)

Nobody could ever imagine that one day wild beasts shall be captured, tamed and put together in closed and open parks. The establishment of zoo have fulfilled this prophecy.

Oceans Linked
“And when the rivers are made to flow into each other.” (81:7)“He has made the two bodies of water flow. They will one day meet. Between them there is a barrier; they cannot encroach one upon the other.” (55:20-21)

“And He it is Who shall merge the two seas together. This palatable and sweet, that saltish and bitter. And between them He has (presently) placed a barrier and a massive partition.” (25:54)

This phenomenal prophecy is an excellent proof of truthfulness of Quran. It was beyond imagination of any one living 1400 years ago to even think of linking of oceans which we see today in Panama and Suez canals.

Modern Communication Systems
“And when various people are brought together.” (81:8)

Fast transport systems, telephone, satellite systems and internet have brought so close to each other proving the truthfulness of the holy Quran.

Women’s Rights
“And when the female-infant buried alive is questioned about – For what crime was she killed.” (81:9-10)

Modern-day women rights and liberation associations may be brain-child of freedom-loving and egalitarian humanist / feminist people but foretold by Quran centuries ago.

Books Published and Spread
“And when books are spread abroad.” (81:11)

The invention of printing press and publication houses and consequently spread of books every where is one of the marvellous prophecies of the Quran made in the dark ages of ignorance and illiteracy.

Extra-Terrestrial Life
“And among His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and of whatever living creatures He has spread forth in both. And He has the power to gather them together whenever He pleases.” (42:30)

Having discourse with aliens is still an unrealized dream, but science is progressing in that direction. The presence of extra-terrestrial life has been proved by scientists. The next step is to see them and making a link with them. No religious scripture, except Quran, even hints about this great scientific discovery.

Air Traffic System
“And by the heaven full of tracks” (51:8)

While prophesying about modern transport systems, Quran also foretold the air-traffic system which is an essential part of aviation. A person living in desert 1400 years ago cannot talk about such advance technologies unless revealed to him by God Almighty.

Aids
“It never happens that permissiveness overwhelms a people to the extent that they display their acts of sex shamelessly and they are not uniquely punished by God. Among them, invariably, pestilence is made to spread and such other diseases, the like of which have never been witnessed by their forefathers.” (Ibn-e-Majah, Kitab-ul-Fitan)* see footnote

I expect you'll become a Muslim now because you are persuaded by such nonsense?

[1213]

Person who doesn't want to believe, can always say, "it was because of some other reason".

What makes you so sure that we do not want to believe? I would love for there to be a God who will grant me eternal happiness with family and friends. But wishful thinking is not enough. My brain is unconvinced and until it is I am destined to be an unbeliever. Your God could remedy that, but it is patently clear that he doesn't care enough or that he isn't real.

I was saying it generally, person who doesn't want to believe, can always.....

I believe you don't want Bible God to be real. However, I don't think believing in God's existence is crucial. Eternal life is promised in the Bible for righteous. That is why I think being righteous is more important. And maybe it is possible, even if person doesn't believe in God's existence.

[1213]

How do vague allusions show that God exists?

Here are how Muslims prove their God exists:

Finger Prints
“Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing” (41:21)

The finger prints system at borders, criminal investigation cells and immigration centres prove the fulfillment of this Quranic prophecy.

Pollution
“Corruption has spread on land and sea because of what men’s hands have wrought” (30:42)

One of the interpretations of the above verse of the Holy Quran is the environmental pollution, caused by human being. And that is spread both in land and sea due to our own inventions, i.e., fumes from chimneys of factories, chemical and nuclear waste, huge traffic in the cities, noise and creation of ozone hole are manifest testimonies of the fulfillment of this prophecy.

Establishment of Israel
And after him We said to the Children of Israel, ‘Dwell Ye in the promised land; and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days come, We shall bring you together out of various people.” (17:105)

Creation of Israel and gathering of Sephardic, Ashkenazi and the Jews of many other different races in Israel proves the authenticity of this prophecy and hence Quran.

Genetic Engineering
“They will alter Allah’s creation.” (4:120)

The holy Quran has prophesied the plastic surgery, genetic engineering and cloning in this short and concise sentence.

Roads in Mountains
“And when the mountains are made to move.” (81:4)

Centuries before the invention of dynamite, the holy Quran prophesied the blowing up and moving of the mountains.

New Transport Systems
“And when the she-camels, ten months pregnant are abandoned.” (81:5)“And He has created horses and mules and asses that you may ride them, and as a source of beauty. And He will create what you do not yet know.” (16:9)

As we know people, specially those living in deserts, have now abandoned camels and other animals for travelling. But this prophecy of invention and emergence of new transport systems is on-going as we witness new and faster modes of transportation emerging all the time.

Zoo
“And when the wild beasts are gathered together.” (81:6)

Nobody could ever imagine that one day wild beasts shall be captured, tamed and put together in closed and open parks. The establishment of zoo have fulfilled this prophecy.

Oceans Linked
“And when the rivers are made to flow into each other.” (81:7)“He has made the two bodies of water flow. They will one day meet. Between them there is a barrier; they cannot encroach one upon the other.” (55:20-21)

“And He it is Who shall merge the two seas together. This palatable and sweet, that saltish and bitter. And between them He has (presently) placed a barrier and a massive partition.” (25:54)

This phenomenal prophecy is an excellent proof of truthfulness of Quran. It was beyond imagination of any one living 1400 years ago to even think of linking of oceans which we see today in Panama and Suez canals.

Modern Communication Systems
“And when various people are brought together.” (81:8)

Fast transport systems, telephone, satellite systems and internet have brought so close to each other proving the truthfulness of the holy Quran.

Women’s Rights
“And when the female-infant buried alive is questioned about – For what crime was she killed.” (81:9-10)

Modern-day women rights and liberation associations may be brain-child of freedom-loving and egalitarian humanist / feminist people but foretold by Quran centuries ago.

Books Published and Spread
“And when books are spread abroad.” (81:11)

The invention of printing press and publication houses and consequently spread of books every where is one of the marvellous prophecies of the Quran made in the dark ages of ignorance and illiteracy.

Extra-Terrestrial Life
“And among His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and of whatever living creatures He has spread forth in both. And He has the power to gather them together whenever He pleases.” (42:30)

Having discourse with aliens is still an unrealized dream, but science is progressing in that direction. The presence of extra-terrestrial life has been proved by scientists. The next step is to see them and making a link with them. No religious scripture, except Quran, even hints about this great scientific discovery.

Air Traffic System
“And by the heaven full of tracks” (51:8)

While prophesying about modern transport systems, Quran also foretold the air-traffic system which is an essential part of aviation. A person living in desert 1400 years ago cannot talk about such advance technologies unless revealed to him by God Almighty.

Aids
“It never happens that permissiveness overwhelms a people to the extent that they display their acts of sex shamelessly and they are not uniquely punished by God. Among them, invariably, pestilence is made to spread and such other diseases, the like of which have never been witnessed by their forefathers.” (Ibn-e-Majah, Kitab-ul-Fitan)* see footnote

I expect you'll become a Muslim now because you are persuaded by such nonsense?

Apparently you didn't read anything what I said. But, thank you, that was interesting. Are you a Muslim now?

I am not persuaded by nonsense, that is why I am not an atheist.

[boatsnguitars]

How do vague allusions show that God exists?

Here are how Muslims prove their God exists:

Finger Prints
“Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing” (41:21)

The finger prints system at borders, criminal investigation cells and immigration centres prove the fulfillment of this Quranic prophecy.

Pollution
“Corruption has spread on land and sea because of what men’s hands have wrought” (30:42)

One of the interpretations of the above verse of the Holy Quran is the environmental pollution, caused by human being. And that is spread both in land and sea due to our own inventions, i.e., fumes from chimneys of factories, chemical and nuclear waste, huge traffic in the cities, noise and creation of ozone hole are manifest testimonies of the fulfillment of this prophecy.

Establishment of Israel
And after him We said to the Children of Israel, ‘Dwell Ye in the promised land; and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days come, We shall bring you together out of various people.” (17:105)

Creation of Israel and gathering of Sephardic, Ashkenazi and the Jews of many other different races in Israel proves the authenticity of this prophecy and hence Quran.

Genetic Engineering
“They will alter Allah’s creation.” (4:120)

The holy Quran has prophesied the plastic surgery, genetic engineering and cloning in this short and concise sentence.

Roads in Mountains
“And when the mountains are made to move.” (81:4)

Centuries before the invention of dynamite, the holy Quran prophesied the blowing up and moving of the mountains.

New Transport Systems
“And when the she-camels, ten months pregnant are abandoned.” (81:5)“And He has created horses and mules and asses that you may ride them, and as a source of beauty. And He will create what you do not yet know.” (16:9)

As we know people, specially those living in deserts, have now abandoned camels and other animals for travelling. But this prophecy of invention and emergence of new transport systems is on-going as we witness new and faster modes of transportation emerging all the time.

Zoo
“And when the wild beasts are gathered together.” (81:6)

Nobody could ever imagine that one day wild beasts shall be captured, tamed and put together in closed and open parks. The establishment of zoo have fulfilled this prophecy.

Oceans Linked
“And when the rivers are made to flow into each other.” (81:7)“He has made the two bodies of water flow. They will one day meet. Between them there is a barrier; they cannot encroach one upon the other.” (55:20-21)

“And He it is Who shall merge the two seas together. This palatable and sweet, that saltish and bitter. And between them He has (presently) placed a barrier and a massive partition.” (25:54)

This phenomenal prophecy is an excellent proof of truthfulness of Quran. It was beyond imagination of any one living 1400 years ago to even think of linking of oceans which we see today in Panama and Suez canals.

Modern Communication Systems
“And when various people are brought together.” (81:8)

Fast transport systems, telephone, satellite systems and internet have brought so close to each other proving the truthfulness of the holy Quran.

Women’s Rights
“And when the female-infant buried alive is questioned about – For what crime was she killed.” (81:9-10)

Modern-day women rights and liberation associations may be brain-child of freedom-loving and egalitarian humanist / feminist people but foretold by Quran centuries ago.

Books Published and Spread
“And when books are spread abroad.” (81:11)

The invention of printing press and publication houses and consequently spread of books every where is one of the marvellous prophecies of the Quran made in the dark ages of ignorance and illiteracy.

Extra-Terrestrial Life
“And among His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and of whatever living creatures He has spread forth in both. And He has the power to gather them together whenever He pleases.” (42:30)

Having discourse with aliens is still an unrealized dream, but science is progressing in that direction. The presence of extra-terrestrial life has been proved by scientists. The next step is to see them and making a link with them. No religious scripture, except Quran, even hints about this great scientific discovery.

Air Traffic System
“And by the heaven full of tracks” (51:8)

While prophesying about modern transport systems, Quran also foretold the air-traffic system which is an essential part of aviation. A person living in desert 1400 years ago cannot talk about such advance technologies unless revealed to him by God Almighty.

Aids
“It never happens that permissiveness overwhelms a people to the extent that they display their acts of sex shamelessly and they are not uniquely punished by God. Among them, invariably, pestilence is made to spread and such other diseases, the like of which have never been witnessed by their forefathers.” (Ibn-e-Majah, Kitab-ul-Fitan)* see footnote

I expect you'll become a Muslim now because you are persuaded by such nonsense?

Apparently you didn't read anything what I said. But, thank you, that was interesting. Are you a Muslim now?

I am not persuaded by nonsense, that is why I am not an atheist.

Oh, I read it and noticed you were very clear about not being able to prove your God. Noted.
I noted that Muslims feel they HAVE proved their God using the same vague statements that you claim give you a slight reason to believe in God. Yet, both are the same: nonesense.

So, it's very clear you do accept nonsense, since you called the Muslim version of your nonsense, nonsense. Yet, you seem to suggest your nonsense is persuasive to you.

I doubt you see the problem, so I'll try to be clear. Your nonsense is still nonsense. It doesn't add to any argument, yet you seem to suggest that if you pile enough nonsense (BS) together, you get a beautiful temple of truth.

Whereas the rest of us see it for what it is: a massive pile of BS.

[TRANSPONDER]

I know that we have to grit out teeth before we reply to a lot of accusations of not reading or understanding or talking nonsense or being blind, when we understand the arguments, the science and often even the Bible better than the religious apologists do. but when they begin getting abusive, we know, we made the case. We made the case when they go on the defensive and instead of presenting arguments why their beliefs are right, it becomes excuses as to why the evidence is against them.

They will never admit being wrong and we are familiar with those who will never admit being wrong no matter how must the evidence is against them, and they totally ignore those who use to believe just as they do and have realised they were fooling themselves. This all has to be about making the case for a hypothetical or hoped for objective audience, and trust that there is another side being put and the Godfaith argument is not the only side being put

It was frustrating when I first got into the debate and others have gone through the same "I thought when I deconverted I'd just have to explain and they'd all see it." No. Because we are up against denialist Faith here and anything is tried to keep the faithcase float. Analogies about seeing the sun when you're drowning, which is nonsense as it assumes that Godfaith is as real as the sun and water. Old problem of using analogy as evidence. And accusing us of talking nonsense, when it's their side making the nonsense arguments, and the weary old morality arguments like 'why is murder wrong' when the argument from objective morality is long dead because subjective instinct -based morality is (on evidence) the best we have and longing for a universal law objective morality is no more than wishing for the moon or a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow to solve all our financial worries, to use a better analogy than drowning in unfaith.

It's really hard for us across the pond to understand the degree to which some live in a world where Satan and Hell are real and Jesusgod is controlling everything they do. Here, it just ain't a thing and even the sort of God -belief is regarded as a bit odd like belief in UFOs or the Loch Ness monster. People who believe in Hell and Satan are seen as a bit cracked even if there is far more credit given to the gospels than it deserves. But there's work to be done on that here, too.

[brunumb]

I believe you don't want Bible God to be real.

See how easy it is to believe things that are false. That's particularly so when you approach things with a definite bias.

[boatsnguitars]

They often forget that many of us were them. We were apologists and believers. We loved and worshipped Jesus and God. We read the Bible, testified to strangers, read McDowell, etc al,.
We defended our faith just as they do now.

Deep down, they know. Deep down, some of them already feel their Faith fading, and like we did, they will plead and beg and cajole and threaten, even, for God to give them a sign that he is there.

And like us, they will hear the screaming silence.

[TRANSPONDER]

I believe you don't want Bible God to be real.

See how easy it is to believe things that are false. That's particularly so when you approach things with a definite bias.

There we go. Self -justifying , finger - pointing accusative -mode. Playing the Bias -card. Garbage. They are just as biased, but they call it Faith and that makes it ok. We go by evidence and they call it 'Faith in science' and that isn't ok because there is evidence to support science and really none to support God.

A lot of Claims, but really no evidence. I know..the Shroud is a puzzle. How the heck was that made in the 14 hundreds? Even in the sixteen humdreds, they'd have had a job. Dammit, we couldn't duplicate it even today. But like I argued...verflucht...even a Shroud apologist tried to explain this - it is not a wrapping for Jesus but a flat image like it was painted, even if it wasn't. We saw the attempt to pass the distortions off as wrap around, but the distortions were on the only bit that WERE flat, and so even this 'Fifth Gospel' is a puzzle, but not Proof, especially since the contradictions in the resurrections show there wasn't a consistent story, just the claim about the empty tomb which itself is a pretty dodgy story, when you look at it. If one looks at it.

And that's my beef, these days. Where are all the Bible critics, experts and apologists? None of them saw that John has no transfiguration? None of them picked up that three gospels pretty much refute the penitent thief as a lie? Did nobody else see that Jesus could not have said 'babes and sucklings? Where are all the doubters and Experts that should have seen this? When are they going to stop writing 'My Real Jesus Theory' books and start doing their job?

Here endeth the rant should be worth a Like just for the laugh.

[1213]

Oh, I read it and noticed you were very clear about not being able to prove your God. Noted.
I noted that Muslims feel they HAVE proved their God using the same vague statements that you claim give you a slight reason to believe in God. Yet, both are the same: nonesense.

So, it's very clear you do accept nonsense, since you called the Muslim version of your nonsense, nonsense. Yet, you seem to suggest your nonsense is persuasive to you.

I doubt you see the problem, so I'll try to be clear. Your nonsense is still nonsense. It doesn't add to any argument, yet you seem to suggest that if you pile enough nonsense (BS) together, you get a beautiful temple of truth.

Whereas the rest of us see it for what it is: a massive pile of BS.