What did Paul mean by a "spiritual body"?

[historia]

This topic spun out of an earlier thread:

I'm finding it hard to see how [1 Cor. 15:44-45] can be interpreted as anything but that Christ was raised in a spiritual body.

Indeed, that's the term that Paul uses to describe the resurrected body. But the question we need to answer is this:

What did Paul mean by a soma pneumatikon (a "spiritual body")?

[JehovahsWitness]

Paul was a Pharisee (he tells us so), and so naturally Jewish scriptures and traditions would have informed his thinking, at least to some degree. His letters wouldn't make much sense otherwise. So we can infer some things about what he likely (although not necessarily) believed from his background.

I think it best to stick to what we can infer Paul meant from what he wrote rather than attempt the mind reading conjecture of what he believed. But great if we can reference the Hebrew scripture, this widens things out a lot!

HEAVEN: we have a God existing in a realm inhabited by numerous intelligent beings. This God at least existed before anything physical was created. (ie he can exist without matter, oxygen, water ect)

Did we agree on this? I'll get my concordance out and see what else we can establish.

[theophile]

Paul was a Pharisee (he tells us so), and so naturally Jewish scriptures and traditions would have informed his thinking, at least to some degree. His letters wouldn't make much sense otherwise. So we can infer some things about what he likely (although not necessarily) believed from his background.

I think it best to stick to what we can infer Paul meant from what he wrote rather than attempt the mind reading conjecture of what he believed. But great if we can reference the Hebrew scripture, this widens things out a lot!

The best quote in the bible on literal resurrection from the best treatment in the bible on it (IMO), the book of Job. In this case chapter 19:

“Oh, that my words were recorded,
that they were written on a scroll,
24 that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead,
or engraved in rock forever!
25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

[historia]

If we can establish that the "there" is a non-physical realm. then we have a good indication as to whether Jesus returned "there" in a physical or a non-physical body.

I think I understand the argument you're trying to make. Although at this point I think you should just lay out your case, rather than continue to slow-walk this, lest we all begin to lose interest.

The problem as I see it is: (a) you haven't defined what a "non-physical realm" is, (b) your argument hinges on Paul having this precise conception of heaven instead of some other view, and (c) couldn't Paul think that an all-powerful God was capable of doing something that normally didn't happen, like bringing a physical body into heaven?

It seems to me there is little in his background (Jewish scripture or Second Temple Judaism) that would, in itself, allow us to infer Paul's precise conception of heaven, let alone the specific one you need for your argument. And Paul says little about heaven in his letters, so we don't have a lot of direct statements to go off of.

In fact, one of the few times he talks about heaven in more than just a passing way is the passage I mentioned above, 2 Cor. 12:2, where he says pretty clearly that he may have gone bodily to the third heaven, to Paradise. So it doesn't seem like Paul thought it was impossible for a physical body to go to heaven, otherwise why mention this as an option?

[JehovahsWitness]

If we can establish that the "there" is a non-physical realm. then we have a good indication as to whether Jesus returned "there" in a physical or a non-physical body.

I think I understand the argument you're trying to make. Although at this point I think you should just lay out your case, rather than continue to slow-walk this, lest we all begin to lose interest.

The slow walking is because I've never studied the bible in isolation this way and was just curious as to how its done. I don't like it much because you end up not knowing if there is even a God in heaven... I would normally just go to Jesus, see that he said his Father is in heaven and put that down as an established point (whether I can find a scripture where Paul specifically said so or not).

My aim was, if we can establish that heaven must be defined as where God is and if God as a spirit existed outside of the physical realm (which he must have done since he existed before anything physical ) anyone that joins him or is with him or comes to exist in his form, must likewise exist outside the physical. Whether thatnis possible to establish solely on the writings of the Apostle Paul does seem more trouble than its worth, so I'm throwing in the towel if you dont mind .

It has, as usual, been interesting Historia,

Regards to you and yours,


JW

[historia]

[Replying to theophile in post #72]

This is a good transition to the third and last subsidiary question we need to address in order to answer the overarching question in the OP:

What did Paul's opponents at Corinth believe?

Clearly, they are proclaiming "there is no resurrection of the dead," as Paul tells us. But they were also Christians, who apparently believed that Christ had been brought back to life. Paul's simple appeal to Christ's resurrection doesn't make sense if they didn't already believe something like that:

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

So what then did Paul's opponents at Corinthians mean when they said "there is no resurrection of the dead," and how could they affirm that while also believing Christ had been brought back to life?

[theophile]

[Replying to theophile in post #72]

This is a good transition to the third and last subsidiary question we need to address in order to answer the overarching question in the OP:

What did Paul's opponents at Corinth believe?

Clearly, they are proclaiming "there is no resurrection of the dead," as Paul tells us. But they were also Christians, who apparently believed that Christ had been brought back to life. Paul's simple appeal to Christ's resurrection doesn't make sense if they didn't already believe something like that:

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

So what then did Paul's opponents at Corinthians mean when they said "there is no resurrection of the dead," and how could they affirm that while also believing Christ had been brought back to life?

I don't think there is a single answer to that. The initial chapters of 1 Corinthians make it pretty clear that the main issue Paul is addressing in Corinth is a church divided amongst itself and of low spiritual maturity. So I think the overarching intention and message of Paul is to bring unity to them through Christ - again, the concept of the body of Christ under its spiritual head: a resurrected Christ. (But per before, more Christ as spirit / idea than physical being you could see and touch.)

When it comes to literal resurrection, I'm guessing many didn't believe simply because they never saw a physical, resurrected Christ. And such doubt is quite reasonable I think (I too don't think Jesus actually resurrected... not yet anyways). Hence Paul needed to emphasize a more metaphorical resurrection that bypassed such doubts and that was ambiguous / flexible insofar as what it meant for the literal form...

This way, Paul could cut through the bickering to the teaching that ultimately mattered, and in that teaching unify the church. Irrespective what opinions were among individual members on literal resurrection.

[historia]

When it comes to literal resurrection, I'm guessing many didn't believe

Again, just to be clear: When some of the Corinthians were saying "there is no resurrection of the dead," by that they meant no "literal" resurrection, no coming back to physical, bodily life?

[theophile]

When it comes to literal resurrection, I'm guessing many didn't believe

Again, just to be clear: When some of the Corinthians were saying "there is no resurrection of the dead," by that they meant no "literal" resurrection, no coming back to physical, bodily life?

Sure, maybe. Along with probably any other kind of doubt. Again, there was not a singular belief amongst the Corinthians I don't think but there was almost certainly doubt about literal resurrection given Paul's statements. Paul just isn't that clear on his opponents views, nor am I aware of any literature by them that would further clarify. I think the general point again is to get past such things and focus on the bigger picture, which is the resurrected, spiritual Christ.

[Eloi]

First century Christians were aware of the difference between a "first resurrection" of "those who belong to the Christ" (1 Cor. 15:23) and the general resurrection of other dead mankind.

1 Thes. 4:16 (...) those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

Phil. 3:10 My aim is to know him and the power of his resurrection and to share in his sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, 11 to see if at all possible I may attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead.

Those resurrected during the Millennium will benefit from the priesthood of Christ and the underpriests, resurrected before the Millenium and in heavens, to be perfected on earth.

Heb. 11:39 And yet all of these [Jehovah's pre-Christ loyal servants], although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, 40 because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us.

1 Pet. 1:10 Concerning this very salvation a diligent inquiry and a careful search were made by the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for YOU. 11 They kept on investigating what particular season or what sort of [season] the spirit in them was indicating concerning Christ when it was bearing witness beforehand about the sufferings for Christ and about the glories to follow these. 12 It was revealed to them that, not to themselves, but to YOU, they were ministering the things that have now been announced to YOU through those who have declared the good news to YOU with holy spirit sent forth from heaven. Into these very things angels are desiring to peer.