What did Paul mean by a "spiritual body"?

[historia]

This topic spun out of an earlier thread:

I'm finding it hard to see how [1 Cor. 15:44-45] can be interpreted as anything but that Christ was raised in a spiritual body.

Indeed, that's the term that Paul uses to describe the resurrected body. But the question we need to answer is this:

What did Paul mean by a soma pneumatikon (a "spiritual body")?

[JehovahsWitness]

As already noted above, Paul thought it was possible for someone to go to heaven in their current, physical body. ...

Unless you have some kind of mind reading capacity, I cannot see how you can make such a dogmatic statement. Do you mean that is what you believe Paul thought based on your interpretation of his writing?

Anyway, let's crack on ...

We know Paul wrote of a God (with his angels ) that is invisible to humans. (Paul spoke of "the things visible and the things invisible" God being classed as the latter) We defined "physical" as that which can be seen (and touched) so logically non-physical would be that which cannot be seen or touched.

Agreed?

The heaven Paul often refered God to being in is a non-physical* ...... {you dont seem to like the word "REALM" so you provide the word } where at least 2 spirit intelligent individuals lived before ANYTHING else existed.

* non-physical see above

Agreed?

[historia]

As already noted above, Paul thought it was possible for someone to go to heaven in their current, physical body.

Unless you have some kind of mind reading capacity, I cannot see how you can make such a dogmatic statement.

I have the capacity to read what Paul wrote. And, in so far as what he wrote reflects his thinking, that does provide us a capacity for understanding his mind. Like all things, that requires interpretation. If you have a different interpretation of 2 Cor. 12:2, this might be a good place to provide it.

We know Paul wrote of a God . . . that is invisible to humans.
. . .
Agreed?

Sure, I'm down for that.

The heaven Paul often refered God to being in is a non-physical* ...... {you dont seem to like the word "REALM" so you provide the word }
. . .
Agreed?

No. As I noted in my previous reply, this is predicated on a number of unsupported assumptions, both about modern and ancient cosmology.

Also, as an aside, I don't think I've expressed any dislike of the word 'realm'. Not sure how you came to that conclusion, either.

[historia]

So probably more leaps than you would like, but that's the direction I would go at least on these terms.

You're right that this was more leaps than I would like -- if by that you mean, an interpretation of the text that requires a number of unsupported suppositions.

Much like JehovahsWitness, I want to know what you think Paul is saying happened to Jesus after he died. Or, conversely, what you think Paul thought actually happens to believers after they die. Did Paul think that Jesus actually came back to life after he died? Will we?

It's unclear from your description.

[JehovahsWitness]

We know Paul wrote of a God . . . that is invisible to humans.
. . .
Agreed?

Sure, I'm down for that.

Great. So lets have a look at the other elements of the quote and see if we can establish them from what Paul wrote shall we? (If we can establish some parameters for the "heaven of Gods abode", then we can hopefully establish some basics about the form to which Jesus went there )

So at the very least we can say ...

Paul wrote of a God living with his angels. We know he acknowledged God as being invisible to humans. We defined "physical" as that which can be seen (and touched) by humans so logically non-physical would be that which cannot be seen or touched. With the above premises, we could refer to this invisible God as being non-physical

Is that an accurate reflection of what Paul wrote on the subject of God and where he lives?

Re: The above definition of "physical" and NON physical I think its fair to presume that Paul acknowldged the existence of things humans can see and touch and converly he himslef refered to "invisible things" in the heavens and earth created through Christ - whatever he was refering to they exist according to him, yes?

The heaven Paul often refered God to being in, is a non-physica realm so we have a heaven inhabited by at least one intelligent individual [YHWH] that lived before ANYTHING else existed see Col 1:16

Agreed?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think it is a realm where a physical body cannot go.

Well lets just continue to work our way through what Paul wrote and see where that gets us shall we?

[historia]

The heaven Paul often refered God to being in, is a non-physica realm so we have a heaven inhabited by at least one intelligent individual [YHWH] that lived before ANYTHING else existed see Col 1:16

No, I think you are conflating a couple of things here.

As noted above, we can draw a distinction between space and matter. Col 1:16 refers to panta ('all things') that are visible or invisible, whether in heaven or upon the earth. It is those things that we would describe as physical or non-physical, not heaven itself, as you have over the past few posts.

Moreover, the expression "heaven and earth" in Col 1:16 is a way of referring to all of God's creation. I think we would be hard pressed to say that Paul thought that God created heaven and lived in it before creating anything else. For Second Temple Jews, heaven may have been, in some sense, the place where God dwells. But it is also a place God created alongside the earth, neither of which -- like the temple, another place God was said to dwell -- can really be said to contain God fully.

[JehovahsWitness]

The heaven Paul often refered God to being in, is a non-physica realm so we have a heaven inhabited by at least one intelligent individual [YHWH] that lived before ANYTHING else existed see Col 1:16

No, I think you are conflating a couple of things here.

Okay, no ...problem

Paul in acknowledging an invisible God was acknowledging the existence of a non physical intelligent being that existed before anything (including anything physical) existed since God "created all things" (Eph 3:9b)

,

Agreed ?

I think we would be hard pressed to say that Paul thought that God created heaven and lived in it before creating anything else.

Regardless of the when or how, Paul did speak of God as being in heaven ; so if we take heaven to be the present "location" of the non-physical invisible intelligent being, either God made this "place" and subsequently put himself inside it. Or heaven is where God is. (We have already established Paul did not speak of heaven and earth being the same thing). Is there a third option?

[historia]

Paul in acknowledging an invisible God was acknowledging the existence of a non physical intelligent being that existed before anything (including anything physical) existed since God "created all things" (Eph 3:9b)

Agreed.

Regardless of the when or how, Paul did speak of God as being in heaven

Agreed.

[JehovahsWitness]

Paul in acknowledging an invisible God was acknowledging the existence of a non physical intelligent being that existed before anything (including anything physical) existed since God "created all things" (Eph 3:9b)

Agreed.

Regardless of the when or how, Paul did speak of God as being in heaven

Agreed.

So what can we deduce?

Either God made this "place" (for want of a better word) and subsequently put himself inside it. Or heaven can reasonably be defined as "where God is". (We have already established Paul did not speak of heaven and earth being the same thing). Is there a third option?

[theophile]

So probably more leaps than you would like, but that's the direction I would go at least on these terms.

You're right that this was more leaps than I would like -- if by that you mean, an interpretation of the text that requires a number of unsupported suppositions.

Much like JehovahsWitness, I want to know what you think Paul is saying happened to Jesus after he died. Or, conversely, what you think Paul thought actually happens to believers after they die. Did Paul think that Jesus actually came back to life after he died? Will we?

It's unclear from your description.

I think the soma pneumatikon is essentially the body of Christ, which in everyday parlance is the church. So Jesus, as Christ, essentially becomes the figurehead and unifying direction of this living, spiritual body / network after he dies. No longer Jesus the man so much as Christ the figurehead of something much, much greater. (Something more along the lines of an idea, moral principle, etc., which governs the spiritual domain.)

But two points on this.

1) I think the church is too narrow a concept to capture the fulness of the body of Christ and we should think bigger than this (i.e., what in Genesis parlance is called elohim). It's not just Jews and Gentiles (or human beings) that are called to join its ranks as Paul says but all things - human and non-human, past, present and future... The concept should be cosmic in scope just as elohim is in Genesis 1.

2) Jesus as Christ is different than Jesus as a human being like you or I. As Christ, he dies and becomes the figurehead of this spiritual body. As a man, I would suggest that his fate is more along the lines of what we typically think of resurrection. As in, he comes back as a living, breathing, thing just as you or I may one day hope to. In this way, Jesus the man can also rejoin the body of Christ and God can ultimately become all in all.

To be clear though, I don't think that either of these two follow-on points are explicit in the reference verses from Paul, who I think anchors on the greater, spiritual role that Jesus plays as Christ. But I do think a case could be made for what I'm saying especially when we bring in the Pauline idea of God becoming all in all.

[historia]

I think the soma pneumatikon is essentially the body of Christ, which in everyday parlance is the church. So Jesus, as Christ, essentially becomes the figurehead and unifying direction of this living, spiritual body / network after he dies. No longer Jesus the man so much as Christ the figurehead of something much, much greater. (Something more along the lines of an idea, moral principle, etc., which governs the spiritual domain.)

Just so I'm clear: You think soma psychikon refers to a literal body (the one we each possess now), but the soma pneumatikon is a metaphorical "body," like the communion of saints. Additionally, Jesus remains dead, and wasn't literally resurrected. "Christ" is just an idea. Is that right?

Did Paul think we will be literally resurrected?