Are the Hebrew scriptures (OT) compatible with the Greek scriptures (NT)?

[Scholar]

Another way to ask this question is, are practicing Jews justified in rejecting the Greek scriptures as being incompatible with the Hebrew scriptures? Or are the believers in the divine origin of the Greek scriptures (Christians), justified in saying that the two testaments are a consistent, coherent message from God?

Items to consider: The Greek scriptures are interpreted as describing God as a Trinity, whereas the Hebrew scriptures make it very clear that God is One without qualification.
God's purpose in the Hebrew scriptures is mainly to have His chosen people worship Him, whereas in the Greek scriptures God's purpose is to save every individual in the world, especially for the afterlife.
No consideration of rewards or punishments in the afterlife in the Hebrew scriptures. The afterlife and the dead are inconsequential in the Hebrew scriptures.
In the Hebrew scriptures, the Jews are to obey the Laws forever. In the Greek scriptures salvation is only obtained by faith in Jesus Christ for everyone. The Law has always been impossible to fulfill and was a lesson in futility.
God can forgive anyone in the Hebrew scriptures. God can only forgive those that accept Christ as their Savior in the Greek scriptures.
In the Hebrew scriptures, the Messiah is to appear once and be triumphant. In the Greek scriptures the Messiah must appear twice, and as it turns out, these appearances are separated by thousands of years.
What do the Hebrew scriptures say about the practice of human sacrifice?
Does the description of the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53 refer to the Messiah?

[JehovahsWitness]

The claim was made that YHVH could "make something out of nothing" but no support re scripture and verse has been given with this claim.

Genesis chapter 17: 1 "I am God Almighty"

YHWH declares Himself omnipotent and thus there would be nothing that he could not do; Including create something out of "nothing"

* Evidently in the absolute sense, Ex Nihilo is a logical absurdity. If there were ever "nothing" in the absolute sense there could never be anything. Here I refer to "nothing" (in quotation marks) to the act of an infinite God creating something using nothing but his own infinite energy.

It is apparent in that creation story, that what was created, was created from something, rather than from nothing.

I agree (see above)

[TRANSPONDER]

looks like we agree again. Something from Nothing does sound like a logical absurdity. But then a complex creative being with no origin sounds even more illogical.

[Miles]

Another way to ask this question is, are practicing Jews justified in rejecting the Greek scriptures as being incompatible with the Hebrew scriptures? Or are the believers in the divine origin of the Greek scriptures (Christians), justified in saying that the two testaments are a consistent, coherent message from God?

Don't know if practicing Jews were justified in rejecting the Greek scriptures as being incompatible with the Hebrew scriptures or not, but I do know that list of the Twelve Tribes of Israel in Revelation is not the same as those listed in the Old testament. Most noticeable is the absence of Dan in Revelation. Then again, not all the Old Testament lists of the 12 tribes agree either.

Genesis 35:22-26

1 Reuben
2 Simeon,
3 Levi,
4 Judah,
5 Issachar,
6 Zebulun.
7 Joseph
8 Benjamin
9 Dan
10 Naphtali.
11 Gad
12 Asher.


Genesis 49: 3-27

1 Reuben
2 Simeon
3 Levi
4 Judah
5 Zebulun
6 Isschar
7 Dan
8 Gad
9 Asher
10 Naphtali
11 Joseph
12 Benjamin


Numbers 1:20-46

1 Reuben
2 Simeon
3 Gad
4 Judah
5 Issachar
6 Zebulun
7 Ephrim
8 Manasseh
9 Benjamin
10 Dan
11 Asher
12 Naphtali


Deuteronomy 27:12-13

1 Simeon,
2 Levi,
3 Judah,
4 Issachar,
5 Joseph,
6 Benjamin.
7 Reuben,
8 Gad,
9 Asher,
10 Zebulun,
11 Dan,
12 Naphtali.


Joshua 13:33–19:49*

1 Reuben
2 Simeon
3 Ephraim
4 Judah
5 Issachar
6 Zebulun
7 Dan
8 Naphtali
9 Gad
10 Asher
11 Manasseh
12 Benjamin


1 Chronicles 2:1-2

1 Reuben
2 Simeon
3 Levi
4 Judah
5 Issachar
6 Zebulun
7 Dan
8 Joseph
9 Benjamin
10 Naphtali
11 Gad
12 Asher


Revelation 7:1–8

1 Judah
2 Reuben
3 Gad
4 Asher
5 Naphtali
6 Manasseh
7 Simon
8 Levi
9 Issachar
10 Zebulun
11 Joseph
12 Benjamin

* also listed HERE

.

[William]

So it is better to say that GOD created something out of something, rather than something out of nothing.

[TRANSPONDER]

So it is better to say that GOD created something out of something, rather than something out of nothing.

Given that GOD is understood to mean the physical forces that were behind the formation (you would prefer the term "Creation" I know), one could say that is more intellectually satisfying, but leaves us with the same problem of Cosmic Origins. Logically,nobody knows and all hypotheses have their problems. No conclusion can be drawn and the argument gets you nowhere.

[William]

So it is better to say that GOD created something out of something, rather than something out of nothing.

Given that GOD is understood to mean the physical forces that were behind the formation

Rather GOD is understood to mean The Mind involved with the formation.

(you would prefer the term "Creation" I know),

You don't know.
The question as to weather we exist within a created thing or not, hasn't been answered either way.

one could say that is more intellectually satisfying, but leaves us with the same problem of Cosmic Origins.

I think the problem is different when understanding that things cannot derive from non-things.

Logically, nobody knows and all hypotheses have their problems. No conclusion can be drawn and the argument gets you nowhere.

[TRANSPONDER]

So it is better to say that GOD created something out of something, rather than something out of nothing.

Given that GOD is understood to mean the physical forces that were behind the formation

Rather GOD is understood to mean The Mind involved with the formation.

(you would prefer the term "Creation" I know),

You don't know.
The question as to weather we exist within a created thing or not, hasn't been answered either way.

one could say that is more intellectually satisfying, but leaves us with the same problem of Cosmic Origins.

I think the problem is different when understanding that things cannot derive from non-things.

Logically, nobody knows and all hypotheses have their problems. No conclusion can be drawn and the argument gets you nowhere.

So here you go again. We have done this before and you may know what Einstein said about do it the same way and expecting a different result.

We know there are physical forces and nobody has demonstrated a Mind such as you claim.

Whether the thing we exist in was Intelligently created (which is what your clumsy equivocation is trying to wangle) is not known or proven. But that everything we know of other than human and animal consciousness (an evolved ability like instinctive reactions on all evidence and from all we can tell) is physical/material and that is the default theory until someone proves a supernatural thing, like a cosmic mind.

Finally, you fall into the stock Theist fallacy of assuming that human perception of everyday things must be the way everything is everywhere and always was. Yes, Cosmic Origins is a problem and all the proposed answers have problems. So - again - nobody knows and anyone who claims to know is sadly deluded or is badly misunderstanding the logic.

I really hoped we wouldn't have to have this conversation again, but I guess that was too much to hope for.

[William]

Fortunately, "something cannot derive from nothing" is not overly related to the subject "Are the Hebrew scriptures (OT) compatible with the Greek scriptures (NT)?".

[TRANSPONDER]

Fortunately, "something cannot derive from nothing" is not overly related to the subject "Are the Hebrew scriptures (OT) compatible with the Greek scriptures (NT)?".

I agree that it would have been better if the argument hadn't been brought up. Whom I wonder,was that naughty boy?

Well, JW and Scholar were debating whether one or two persons created everything out of nothing, which was assumed because the problems thrown at atheists can't be tossed at Theists 'if stuff already existed before God started creating, where did it come from?' Has to be 'nothing'.

So someone started a diversion into whether anything can be created from nothing anyway which you correctly point out is off the topic. #57 so far as i can make out. Before you started arguing that we live in a creation (read 'Intelligently designed by a Cosmic Mind Aka GOD). Yes, ok, perhaps. Kalam has been done to death. Nobody really knows. Time to move on.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #69]

My actual current views on those things you mentioned can be read in an ongoing discussion Tanager and I are presently involved with, as well as in an ongoing conversation I am having with PK The reader can view those, here and here.