Hyper-Religiosity and it's Danger to Individuals and Society

[boatsnguitars]

Hyper-religiosity refers to an excessive and obsessive devotion to religious beliefs and practices. While religion can provide many benefits, including a sense of purpose and community, hyper-religiosity can be dangerous to both individuals and society. In this debate, I will argue that hyper-religiosity poses a significant danger, leading to harmful behaviors and attitudes that can cause harm to both individuals and society.

Argument 1: Hyper-Religiosity Can Lead to Extremism

Hyper-religiosity can lead individuals to take their religious beliefs to an extreme level, leading to extremism. Religious extremism has been responsible for many acts of violence, including terrorism, hate crimes, and even wars. When individuals believe that their religious beliefs are the only truth, and anyone who does not follow their beliefs is wrong or evil, they may become more prone to acts of violence. Such extremism can be dangerous not only to individuals but also to society as a whole.

Argument 2: Hyper-Religiosity Can Lead to the Rejection of Scientific Evidence

Hyper-religiosity can lead individuals to reject scientific evidence that contradicts their religious beliefs. This can have serious consequences, particularly when it comes to public health. For example, some hyper-religious individuals may refuse medical treatment for themselves or their children based on religious beliefs, even when that treatment is proven to be effective. This can lead to the spread of preventable diseases, putting not only the individual but also the wider community at risk.

Argument 3: Hyper-Religiosity Can Lead to Discrimination and Intolerance

Hyper-religiosity can lead to the belief that one's religious beliefs are superior to others, leading to discrimination and intolerance. This can manifest in various ways, such as religious discrimination in the workplace, hate crimes against individuals who do not follow their religious beliefs, or even the persecution of religious minorities. Such intolerance can create division and conflict within society, leading to harm to both individuals and society.

Counterargument: Religion Can Provide Positive Benefits

It is true that religion can provide many positive benefits, including a sense of purpose, community, and comfort during difficult times. However, it is essential to recognize that hyper-religiosity goes beyond normal religious practices and can lead to harmful attitudes and behaviors. It is not religion itself that poses a danger but rather the excessive and obsessive devotion to religious beliefs that can be harmful.

Conclusion:

In conclusion, hyper-religiosity poses a significant danger to both individuals and society. It can lead to extremism, the rejection of scientific evidence, and discrimination and intolerance. It is essential to promote a balanced and healthy approach to religion that recognizes the benefits of religious practices while avoiding the dangerous extremes of hyper-religiosity. Which is ultimately ironic, since Christians admire Jesus's extreme commitment to his religious faith, but are very adamant to not raise their children to be as zealous as Jesus.

Here are some things Jesus required of his followers:
1. Denial of self: Jesus taught that his followers should deny themselves, take up their cross, and follow him (Matthew 16:24). This means putting aside their own desires, ambitions, and comfort for the sake of following Jesus and doing what is right.

2. Love your enemies: Jesus taught that his followers should love their enemies and pray for those who persecute them (Matthew 5:44). This is an extreme teaching because it goes against our natural human inclination to seek revenge and hold grudges.

3. Give to the poor: Jesus taught that his followers should give to the poor and needy, even if it means giving away everything they have (Matthew 19:21). This is an extreme teaching because it requires sacrificial giving and a willingness to put the needs of others before our own.

4. Turn the other cheek: Jesus taught that his followers should not resist an evil person, but instead turn the other cheek when struck (Matthew 5:39). This is an extreme teaching because it goes against our natural instinct to fight back and defend ourselves.

5. Forsake all and follow him: Jesus told a rich man that if he wanted to be perfect, he should go and sell all his possessions and give to the poor, and then come and follow him (Matthew 19:21). This is an extreme teaching because it requires complete surrender of one's material possessions and personal desires.

6. The implication that the Bible is true, and the word from God, yet, few people read it, even fewer study it to understand it. And the few that do either become atheist, or turn into apologists and perpetuate the many lies I've documented. (If I believed the Bible was truly the word of God, I'd immediately do everything Jesus said. Most Christians don't, because, as every prayer circle and Bible study group knows: most people aren't really Christian.)



Debate questions:

1. How can the extreme following of a religion created by God Himself, sanctioned by Jesus himself, lead to such evil? Why would following Jesus be good for society and individuals when done lukewarmly, but when done to the extreme, causes harm?
2. It is common for the average Church goer to say something like, "Gee, pastor, I sure admire your Faith." and then, privately, say that they think the pastor is too religious, and they often will keep the pastor at arms length. They are happy to see his weekly, hour-long, one man cabaret show on Sunday, but rarely have him over for dinner.

Put another way:
Is there a contradiction in society's admiration of religious faith while simultaneously criticizing religious leaders for being too religious, and if so, how can this be reconciled?

I think we all know the answer: we know if it were true, we'd all want to be as pious as the most fervent zealot, but because we all know it isn't true, we simply admire it as an ideal, not an actual virtue.


So, debate why religious zealotry leads to bad things when it's based on the "Truth and Goodness of God"?

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovahs Witnesses I agree that extremism can lead to dangerous ideologies and behaviours, I would certainly personally avoid such a religion. Jesus taught us to love even our enemies so True Christianity is balanced and positive and helps people become more loving individuals even while being wholely devoted to their God.

So, debate why religious zealotry leads to bad things when it's based on the "Truth and Goodness of God"?

Truth and goodness never leads to "bad things"; bad things arise when one deviates from truth and goodness.





JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

TRUTH, RELIGION and ... JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

[boatsnguitars]

As one of Jehovahs Witnesses I agree that extremism can lead to dangerous ideologies and behaviours, I would certainly personally avoid such a religion. Jesus taught us to love even our enemies so True Christianity is balanced and positive and helps people become more loving individuals even while being wholely devoted to their God.

So, debate why religious zealotry leads to bad things when it's based on the "Truth and Goodness of God"?

Truth and goodness never leads to "bad things"; bad things arise when one deviates from truth and goodness.

So, we agree that extremism is bad, yet, I'm not seeing you address the effect of people adhering to Jesus's words to the jot and tittle. Jesus said more than just "love your enemy", as I posted.

As for "Truth and Goodness". If God is what is true and good, then following him (Jesus) should only lead to goodness. Yet, there is a clear phenomenon that you fail to address regarding how extremists that try to follow all of Jesus's words are left in a destitute state, and are often mentally ill (and not cured of it).

Again:
Following Jesus requires extreme sacrifices, both in terms of lifestyle and beliefs. Jesus calls on his followers to abandon their old ways of living and thinking and embrace a new way of life centered on selflessness, love, and devotion to God. Some of the extreme sacrifices required to follow Jesus include:

1. Giving up material possessions: Jesus taught that those who follow him should not be attached to their material possessions but should be willing to give them up for the sake of the gospel. In Matthew 19:21, he tells a rich young man to sell all his possessions and give to the poor if he wants to be perfect.

2. Abandoning family and friends: Jesus also teaches that his followers should be willing to leave behind their family and friends to follow him. In Luke 14:26, he says, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

3. Accepting persecution: Following Jesus may also lead to persecution, including physical harm, imprisonment, and even death. In Matthew 10:22, Jesus says, "You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

4. Living a life of humility: Jesus teaches that his followers should be humble and avoid seeking power or status. In Matthew 20:26, he says, "Whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant."

5. Practicing forgiveness: Jesus teaches that his followers should forgive those who wrong them, even if they do not deserve it. In Matthew 5:44, he says, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."

Following Jesus requires extreme sacrifices, including giving up material possessions, abandoning family and friends, accepting persecution, living a life of humility, and practicing forgiveness. These teachings are not easy to follow, and they require a deep commitment to Jesus and his teachings. Christians claim this can lead to a life of spiritual fulfillment and meaning, but if they were to be followed in total, they inevitably lead to material poverty and social isolation.


Please address these specifics.

[1213]

...
In conclusion, hyper-religiosity poses a significant danger to both individuals and society. It can lead to extremism, the rejection of scientific evidence, and discrimination and intolerance. ...

Why make fanaticism an religious issue only? Hyper-scientism can be as dangerous. I think people should be free to live their own life as they want. And only parents should have right to decide for their own kids. Giving power to any human is dangerous that is why not even atheists should have any power over other people. There is no reason to think they are somehow better. People are often evil, stupid and don't know much, that is why everyone should have power only over their own life and some power over their own kids. Then it doesn't matter is person fanatic atheist, as long as he has power only over his own life and can't force his ideas and desires to others.

[boatsnguitars]

...
In conclusion, hyper-religiosity poses a significant danger to both individuals and society. It can lead to extremism, the rejection of scientific evidence, and discrimination and intolerance. ...

Why make fanaticism an religious issue only? Hyper-scientism can be as dangerous. I think people should be free to live their own life as they want. And only parents should have right to decide for their own kids. Giving power to any human is dangerous that is why not even atheists should have any power over other people. There is no reason to think they are somehow better. People are often evil, stupid and don't know much, that is why everyone should have power only over their own life and some power over their own kids. Then it doesn't matter is person fanatic atheist, as long as he has power only over his own life and can't force his ideas and desires to others.

Whataboutism is noted.

Science doesn't claim to be the Truth, The Light, and All That Is Good And Holy in Perfection, does it? Just find the place in the Science Bible where it prescribes certain behavior for adherents... And let me know when you find the Science Bible, because, I don't think it exists.

Please, we aren't talking about Science. Stay on topic. We are discussing the problem with following Jesus (or other RELIGIONS) to the letter of the law he prescribed. That's all. It's RELIGIONS that claim to embody the End-All-Be-All Truth.

[boatsnguitars]

In the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), Jesus command to "follow me" appears repeatedly (e.g., Matthew 8:22; 9:9, Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27; John 1:43). In many cases, Jesus was calling the twelve men who would become His disciples (Matthew 10:34). But other times, He was speaking to anyone who wanted what He had to offer (John 3:16; Mark 8:34).

In Matthew 10:3439, Jesus stated clearly what it means to follow Him. He said, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-lawa mans enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."

Jesus bringing a "sword" and turning family members against each other can seem a little harsh after words like "whosoever believes on Him shall not perish" (John 3:16). But Jesus never softened the truth, and the truth is that following Him leads to difficult choices. Sometimes turning back may seem very appealing. When Jesus teaching went from the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:311) to the coming cross, many who had followed him turned away (John 6:66). Even the disciples decided that following Jesus was too difficult the night He was arrested. Every one of them deserted Him (Matthew 26:56; Mark 14:50). On that night, following Christ meant possible arrest and execution. Rather than risk his own life, Peter denied that he even knew Jesus three times (Matthew 26:6975).

To truly follow Christ means He has become everything to us. Everyone follows something: friends, popular culture, family, selfish desires, or God. We can only follow one thing at a time (Matthew 6:24). God states we are to have no other gods before Him (Exodus 20:3; Deuteronomy 5:7; Mark 12:30). To truly follow Christ means we do not follow anything else. Jesus said in Luke 9:23, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me." There is no such thing as a "halfway disciple." As the disciples demonstrated, no one can follow Christ by the strength of his own willpower. The Pharisees were good examples of those who were trying to obey God in their own strength. Their self-effort led only to arrogance and distortion of the whole purpose of Gods Law (Luke 11:39; Matthew 23:24).

Jesus gave His disciples the secret to faithfully following Him, but they did not recognize it at the time. He said, "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing" (John 6:63). And "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them" (verse 65). The disciples had walked with Jesus for three years, learning, observing, and participating in His miracles. Yet, even they could not follow Him faithfully in their own strength. They needed a Helper.

Jesus promised many times that, once He had ascended to the Father, He would send a "Helper" to themthe Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). In fact, He told them that it was for their good that He was going away so that the Holy Spirit could come (John 16:7). The Holy Spirit indwells the heart of every believer (Galatians 2:20; Romans 8:16; Hebrews 13:5; Matthew 28:20). Jesus warned His followers that they were not to begin testifying of Him "until you have been clothed with power from on high" (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4). When the Holy Spirit came upon those first believers at Pentecost, they suddenly had all the power they needed to follow Christ, even to the death, if needed (Acts 2:14; 4:31; 7:59-60).

Following Jesus means striving to be like Him. He always obeyed His Father, so thats what we strive to do (John 8:29; 15:10). To truly follow Christ means to make Him the Boss. Thats what it means to make Jesus Lord of our lives (Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 12:3; 2 Corinthians 4:5). Every decision and dream is filtered through His Word with the goal of glorifying Him in everything (1 Corinthians 10:31). We are not saved by the things we do for Christ (Ephesians 2:89) but by what He has done for us. Because of His grace, we want to please Him in everything. All this is accomplished as we allow the Holy Spirit to have complete control of every area of our lives (Ephesians 5:18). He explains the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 2:14), empowers us with spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:4-11), comforts us (John 14:16), and guides us (John 14:26). To follow Christ means we apply the truths we learn from His Word and live as if Jesus walked beside us in person.


https://www.gotquestions.org/follow-Christ.html


Not my words, that's a Christian saying what Jesus meant. I think most Christians here think following Jesus means to say "Lord, Lord" and reap the reward of eternal life. Just like that. They seem to ignore all the hard parts. "They love their sin".

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #5]

Yes. This is a common pushback by the religious apologists - secularism doesn't have such a good record, either. Perhaps not, but it does not claim to be doing God's work. It is trying to do the better but does not claim to be always right. It admits to mistakes and of course so does the church, but they aren't the mistakes of religion, oh no; it was people deviating from truth and goodness. Which is of course not the religious claim that the churches would like it to be but a secularist moral situation. Religion claims (or so I understand it) to be guided by God who should never deviate from the truth and the good.

[Difflugia]

Why make fanaticism an religious issue only?

Ask the fanatics.

Hyper-scientism can be as dangerous.

I'm not sure that's true, even in principle. How many people have flown a plane into an office building because p <= 0.5? How many people have killed their kids because robust data from controlled and replicated experiments told them to?

Just stringing the words together doesn't guarantee that your statement is coherent. "Too scientific" is kind of like "too proficient" or "too level-headed". I might be able to create a sentence using those phrases, but turning them into meaningful concepts is a tough row to hoe.

I think people should be free to live their own life as they want. And only parents should have right to decide for their own kids.

I also think both of these statements are broadly true, but I suspect that you include implied limits just as I do. The difference between us is exactly where those limits lie. Do you think that parents should be allowed to deny their children life-saving medical treatment, for example? I don't, but Christian Scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses do.

Giving power to any human is dangerous that is why not even atheists should have any power over other people. There is no reason to think they are somehow better.

Not better, just more rational, at least on average. Any given theist may have compartmentalized "magic is real" in a way that doesn't affect their other judgements or ability to evaluate evidence in any other context. I know some that are at least close to that ideal. I wouldn't bet on a stranger, though.

People are often evil, stupid and don't know much, that is why everyone should have power only over their own life and some power over their own kids. Then it doesn't matter is person fanatic atheist, as long as he has power only over his own life and can't force his ideas and desires to others.

These can't both be true. The first can only be so if you're an anarchist, but then the second is absolutely false. The goal is to limit power while choosing people that aren't "evil, stupid and don't know much" to do the necessary governing. There are certainly never any guarantees, but for the reasons I've given and assuming all else is equal, I'd pick an atheist every time.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #1]

How could the requirements listed in 1 through 5 (Christ did not teach the 6th*) cause anything listed in your arguments 1-3?

For example, if you are following the command from Christ to love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, bless those who curse you, forgive those who wrong you (etc), how could you be committing a hate crime or even persecution against another person? How could you be prone to acts of violence against anyone if you are turning the other cheek?


I just don't see the connection between the commands that you listed and the consequences you are warning about in your arguments. If anything, it seems to show the exact opposite.



(* I placed an asterisk above, just to point out that some of the commands He gave that you listed were not meant for anyone other than the person being addressed - such as the rich young man. That being said, yes, He did tell us to give to those in need. Then, for the 'hate your mother, brother, etc, etc'; He obviously did not mean that in the literal sense that English uses the word 'hate', because elsewhere He also said to love - God, neighbor [as oneself; therefore, one must also love oneself], and also enemies. Your brother, mother, sister, etc, etc, are including somewhere in that list, lol. These commands to love don't leave room to literally hate anyone. Rather, we are to love God and His Son MOST - serving and putting them FIRST. In a thread speaking about extremism, we might want to consider if we are reading the account in an uncalled-for, extremist way.)


Just in case you think I am disagreeing with any of His commands, I will address the list you wrote to JW:

1. Giving up material possessions: Jesus taught that those who follow him should not be attached to their material possessions but should be willing to give them up for the sake of the gospel. In Matthew 19:21, he tells a rich young man to sell all his possessions and give to the poor if he wants to be perfect.

Yes, and that was the point: the rich young man loved his riches most; enough that he was unwilling to give them up even when invited to come with Christ. (Keep in mind that the rich young man was loved by Christ; keep in mind that the rich young man is the one who pressed the matter and wanted to know what he, himself, lacked. Christ showed him what he lacked at the young man's REQUEST.)

(Love would also give to a person in need.)

2. Abandoning family and friends: Jesus also teaches that his followers should be willing to leave behind their family and friends to follow him. In Luke 14:26, he says, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

The quote you used does not say the same thing that you said. Please note that the apostles did not abandon their families in the sense that you may be thinking. They left their families, yes... but to WORK. To work and to be trained by Christ, for the Kingdom (to be kings and priests in that Kingdom < - and to be trusted to serve/reign with Christ in His Kingdom, the Kingdom and its King need to come FIRST, the King being loved the MOST). But men (and women) leave their families to work for secular employment as well - then and now - but we do not consider that to be abandonment, right? Please note that Peter still had a wife and children (at least one son, Mark). Please also note that some family members chose to follow them as well (the mother of the two brothers who argued over who would be seated where in the Kingdom). Others maintained a home in which some of the apostles stayed in their travels.

Now, if their families chose not to remain or wait (or if their families chose to give them an ultimatum: us or Him), then that would be their choice. Not judging (at all); just saying. We (Christians) are not to turn away from our own flesh and blood; but that does not mean our own flesh and blood won't - even if just temporarily - turn away from us.

Even in Isaiah (58), God makes it clear that we are not to turn away from our own flesh and blood.

Isnt this the fast that I have chosen: to break the chains of wickedness, to untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and tear off every yoke? 7Isnt it to share your bread with the hungry, to bring the poor and homeless into your home, to clothe the naked when you see him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

3. Accepting persecution: Following Jesus may also lead to persecution, including physical harm, imprisonment, and even death. In Matthew 10:22, Jesus says, "You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Yes.

4. Living a life of humility: Jesus teaches that his followers should be humble and avoid seeking power or status. In Matthew 20:26, he says, "Whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant."

Yes... (though I am not sure if you are adding unintended meaning to these words). Matt 20:26 is referring to the Kingdom. But we (disciples and Christians) are indeed to SERVE, following the example that Christ set: serving one another. Making ourselves least ones.

5. Practicing forgiveness: Jesus teaches that his followers should forgive those who wrong them, even if they do not deserve it. In Matthew 5:44, he says, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."

Other than the fact that I would not use the word 'deserve' - again, yes, this is correct... we are to forgive any who wrong us (including those who hate us and persecute us). Especially if we want to be forgiven for our own sins. Matt 6:14-15.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Purple Knight]

Following Jesus requires extreme sacrifices, including giving up material possessions, abandoning family and friends, accepting persecution, living a life of humility, and practicing forgiveness. These teachings are not easy to follow, and they require a deep commitment to Jesus and his teachings. Christians claim this can lead to a life of spiritual fulfillment and meaning, but if they were to be followed in total, they inevitably lead to material poverty and social isolation.

I agree that following some of the more extreme Jesus teachings, like giving up possessions and turning the other cheek, can lead to a horrible life for the individual, but it's hardly dangerous to anyone else.

And I support the right to ruin yourself for the benefit of your soul, if you think that's what you're doing. It's your life.

It's probably going to get me in trouble to say this but as far as a real, physical danger to people, Christians are not the problem. There are problems. Christians are not it. The Christians declaring holy wars and crusades are ignoring their own religion's extreme teachings, not ignoring common sense in order to follow their religion. The problem is with their sense, not their religion.