Why Did God Make Humans in the First Place?

[boatsnguitars]

The Theist's Nightmare:

P1. If an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god exists, then evil does not.
P2. There is evil in the world.
C1. Therefore, an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god does not exist.

This is the traditional Problem of Evil and it's given Theists nightsweats for centuries. It is one of the reason many people start their exit from religion.

Now, I will let the Theists try to explain it away, but there is one simple problem with all their answers (which usually end with "There may be logical reasons God allows evil for some greater purpose.")

Why did God create Human's at all? Human's, as we have seen, are - if not the source of Evil - are the sole recipient of all suffering. (I would add animals, but many Christians claim animals either don't suffer or they deserve the suffering we impose on them).

God, being Perfect, had no need to create a world in which there was suffering, and if he created Humans for the sole purpose of having things worship him, or entertain him, he chose a very sick way to do it.

After all, he could have made an infinite number of Gods.

Theists argue against this by claiming there can only be one God. By what rule? They claim that there would be a power struggle, but how so? If you have Perfect Beings that have no need to compete over resources, and are All Loving, how is there any struggle? After all, Christians are happy to claim Jesus was perfect and gets along with God, so why was God unable to make even greater beings than Jesus?

Angels, you say? Well, they don't exist, but the story of Satan only shows how a lesser being than a God would inevitably lead to evil and suffering - and he allows it.

So, Theists have to logically explain why an Omnipotent, All-Loving God allows evil and suffering, when he could have avoided all of it to begin with by either not creating beings, or making Gods equal to him.

Checkmate, Theists.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #76]

Very good. This is making the point - why all this? If god has angels,what are we needed for? They have free will as some rebelled. If not, no Satan, no serpent no Eden, no hell, no point in Christianity.

The believers can excuse as much as they like, 'God knows best, it's all part of His Plan' or pretest Faith as much as they like, but why should anyone believe it when an evolved world with imperfect critters struggling to survive makes more sense and fits the facts better?

I get the sense that Believers can't address the OP openly because they:
1. Have decided God exists, therefore,
2. God made us the way we did, so there's no reason to question it.

I have heard some try to weakly suggest that God wanted humans because we were docile 'sheep', or capable of love (Gods aren't?), or somehow fulfill his desire to own a pet. But they see the problem with this: While they are happy be slaves/pets to God in private, they are not inclined to admit it in public because they see how bad it looks. Especially Apologists who always feel the pressure to sell Christianity to the lurkers and other readers they think need their defense of God.

The interesting thing is you don't see the actual true answer: "I don't know why he did it". Which would also be a problem, because if they can answer that for this question, isn't that the true answer for all questions about God? "Why does God hate homosexuality" - "I don't know" would be the honest answer, but instead they need to throw in all kinds of reasoning...

Which, of course, fits the atheist hypothesis: When people speak for God, they are actually speaking for themselves. Since they themselves didn't make Humans, they can't answer why God didn't make Gods instead of humans - yet, they can easily answer why they hate homosexuality, or other things because they are accessing the part of their brain that holds those feelings. (And, those who answer that God doesn't hate homosexuality are also accessing the part of their brain that holds those feelings).

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #76]

Very good. This is making the point - why all this? If god has angels,what are we needed for? They have free will as some rebelled. If not, no Satan, no serpent no Eden, no hell, no point in Christianity.

The believers can excuse as much as they like, 'God knows best, it's all part of His Plan' or pretest Faith as much as they like, but why should anyone believe it when an evolved world with imperfect critters struggling to survive makes more sense and fits the facts better?

I get the sense that Believers can't address the OP openly because they:
1. Have decided God exists, therefore,
2. God made us the way we did, so there's no reason to question it.

I have heard some try to weakly suggest that God wanted humans because we were docile 'sheep', or capable of love (Gods aren't?), or somehow fulfill his desire to own a pet. But they see the problem with this: While they are happy be slaves/pets to God in private, they are not inclined to admit it in public because they see how bad it looks. Especially Apologists who always feel the pressure to sell Christianity to the lurkers and other readers they think need their defense of God.

The interesting thing is you don't see the actual true answer: "I don't know why he did it". Which would also be a problem, because if they can answer that for this question, isn't that the true answer for all questions about God? "Why does God hate homosexuality" - "I don't know" would be the honest answer, but instead they need to throw in all kinds of reasoning...

Which, of course, fits the atheist hypothesis: When people speak for God, they are actually speaking for themselves. Since they themselves didn't make Humans, they can't answer why God didn't make Gods instead of humans - yet, they can easily answer why they hate homosexuality, or other things because they are accessing the part of their brain that holds those feelings. (And, those who answer that God doesn't hate homosexuality are also accessing the part of their brain that holds those feelings).

That's very good. You picked up like a TV detective the hidden motive of not wanting to admit not knowing because that undermines their claim to Know

And I just loved "..Apologists who always feel the pressure to sell Christianity to the lurkers ..."

"Hey, bud, ya wanna buy some Chris..."

"Shh!! This the real stuff? None of that cafeteria dandruff?"

"Nah, the real thing, predestination, Union with God, the rapture..."

"Oh Boy, how much?"

"How much ya got?"

[JehovahsWitness]

"I don't know" would be the honest answer, but instead they need to throw in all kinds of reasoning...

DO CHRISTIANS CLAIM TO KNOW EVERYTHING?

Certainly not! There are plenty of religuous questions for which even the most avid bible reader cannot know the anwser and it would be unreasonable to claim to know everything about the thinking and motivation of an infinite God. That said, the bible believing Christian can deduce many things from reasoning on scripture. The bible touches on nearly all of the big questions on life and we can get an idea how the God of scripture feels about many topics from what He is reported to have said or done in their regard.

To read learn please go to other posts related to ....

FAITH, GOD and ...THE BIBLE

[boatsnguitars]

"I don't know" would be the honest answer, but instead they need to throw in all kinds of reasoning...

DO CHRISTIANS CLAIM TO KNOW EVERYTHING?

Certainly not! There are plenty of religuous questions for which even the most avid bible reader cannot know the anwser and it would be unreasonable to claim to know everything about the thinking and motivation of an infinite God. That said, the bible believing Christian can deduce many things from reasoning on scripture. The bible touches on nearly all of the big questions on life and we can get an idea how the God of scripture feels about many topics from what He is reported to have said or done in their regard.

To read learn please go to other posts related to ....

FAITH, GOD and ...THE BIBLE

The list of things Christians won't claim to know is small. your post doesn't discount this. As you said, "The bible touches on nearly all of the big questions on life and we can get an idea how the God of scripture feels about many topics from what He is reported to have said or done in their regard."

Wow, is that all? Just "nearly all of the big questions on life"... That's not arrogant to claim at all..... :-/

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

The answer to the question in the title is: love.

Love enough to want to give life TO us. (not just us of course, but many other forms of life as well)

What's love got to do with it? God was already surrounded by angels, so why would he decide, through 'love', to create lesser material beings? Makes no sense.

Well I don't think you have to be a woman to understand, but I had a child (more than one) out of love. Not as selfless as God of course, because I wanted a child to love rather than simply wanting to bring more life into existence out of love for that life. But I can at least understand love wanting to bring life into existence; love wanting to GIVE life to others.

NOT creating beings at all would mean ABORTING all life (before it has even been conceived no less), even those you love, those you know will learn to choose the right and reject the wrong; those you know will learn and choose LOVE, forgiveness, mercy; some - such as Christ - even giving His life for others. Why would an Omni and all-loving God wipe those people out before they even have a chance to live? Where is the love in that? The hope?

This is one of the most absurd arguments I have ever heard. Not creating non-existent beings is aborting those beings? Surely you jest. The mental gymnastics one has to go through to prop up religious beliefs is sometimes staggering.

Have you never heard of aborting a plan?


Peace again.

I had no idea I have aborted millions of human beings by not planning them.

You didn't do anything. You suggested rather that God should not have created beings as a means to avoid suffering.

Tam, I think you need to think about the OP a little more. I am not suggesting God shouldn't create Life, but I am questioning why he would make Life that can cause and experience suffering?

But you did suggest exactly that.

So, Theists have to logically explain why an Omnipotent, All-Loving God allows evil and suffering, when he could have avoided all of it to begin with by either not creating beings, or making Gods equal to him.

I simply responded to your suggestion; in fact, I responded to both parts of your suggestion in the post that directly addresses your OP. Perhaps you could respond to that post instead?



Peace again to you.

[boatsnguitars]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

The answer to the question in the title is: love.

Love enough to want to give life TO us. (not just us of course, but many other forms of life as well)

What's love got to do with it? God was already surrounded by angels, so why would he decide, through 'love', to create lesser material beings? Makes no sense.

Well I don't think you have to be a woman to understand, but I had a child (more than one) out of love. Not as selfless as God of course, because I wanted a child to love rather than simply wanting to bring more life into existence out of love for that life. But I can at least understand love wanting to bring life into existence; love wanting to GIVE life to others.

NOT creating beings at all would mean ABORTING all life (before it has even been conceived no less), even those you love, those you know will learn to choose the right and reject the wrong; those you know will learn and choose LOVE, forgiveness, mercy; some - such as Christ - even giving His life for others. Why would an Omni and all-loving God wipe those people out before they even have a chance to live? Where is the love in that? The hope?

This is one of the most absurd arguments I have ever heard. Not creating non-existent beings is aborting those beings? Surely you jest. The mental gymnastics one has to go through to prop up religious beliefs is sometimes staggering.

Have you never heard of aborting a plan?


Peace again.

I had no idea I have aborted millions of human beings by not planning them.

You didn't do anything. You suggested rather that God should not have created beings as a means to avoid suffering.

Tam, I think you need to think about the OP a little more. I am not suggesting God shouldn't create Life, but I am questioning why he would make Life that can cause and experience suffering?

But you did suggest exactly that.

So, Theists have to logically explain why an Omnipotent, All-Loving God allows evil and suffering, when he could have avoided all of it to begin with by either not creating beings, or making Gods equal to him.

I simply responded to your suggestion; in fact, I responded to both parts of your suggestion in the post that directly addresses your OP. Perhaps you could respond to that post instead?



Peace again to you.

So, fair enough, but you have to understand it in context. (You've heard that before, no?)

My question - which you have again avoided - is why didn't God make Beings that were equal to Himself?

[tam]

Peace again!

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #86]

I responded to that in my original post.

[boatsnguitars]

Peace again!

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #86]

I responded to that in my original post.

OK, so help me out.
You said:

Why could evil not exist if an omnipotent/benevolent/scient god exists?

God is defined as Perfect: All-Loving, All-Powerful, All-Knowing. ALL-GOOD.
If there were two Gods, why would they fight? Why would they produce Evil, if they were all Loving? Wouldn't they strive to get along?

Are you suggesting that perfect friends must come to blows and create Evil?

How would your God bring Evil into the world if it was just himself and another equal God, who is also All-Loving? All-Good? Then whence cometh evil?

[JehovahsWitness]

Why has God permitted evil?
viewtopic.php?p=1117885#p1117885

Is it not evil to PERMIT evil?
viewtopic.php?p=1117966#p1117966

Who or what determines if the end justifies the means?
viewtopic.php?p=1117990#p1117990

What is the issue of universal Sovereignty? [Defined]
viewtopic.php?p=1031210#p1031210

To learn more go to other posts related to

SATAN , SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE and ...THE PERMISSION OF EVIL

[TRANSPONDER]

Why has God permitted evil?
viewtopic.php?p=1117885#p1117885

Is it not evil to PERMIT evil?
viewtopic.php?p=1117966#p1117966

Who or what determines if the end justifies the means?
viewtopic.php?p=1117990#p1117990

What is the issue of universal Sovereignty? [Defined]
viewtopic.php?p=1031210#p1031210

To learn more go to other posts related to

SATAN , SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE and ...THE PERMISSION OF EVIL

To whom was that post addressed? And just why should we be impressed you referencing your own posted opinions as though they were Authoritative? Why do we have to listen to the old apologetics about the problem of Evil, none of which work and even you had in a recent post to exclude natural disasters and tacitly admit that God did nothing about them? We see no convincing or plausible explanations, only excuses that the faithful can cling to. and ignore or dismiss the very real doubts and questions.