Why Did God Make Humans in the First Place?

[boatsnguitars]

The Theist's Nightmare:

P1. If an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god exists, then evil does not.
P2. There is evil in the world.
C1. Therefore, an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god does not exist.

This is the traditional Problem of Evil and it's given Theists nightsweats for centuries. It is one of the reason many people start their exit from religion.

Now, I will let the Theists try to explain it away, but there is one simple problem with all their answers (which usually end with "There may be logical reasons God allows evil for some greater purpose.")

Why did God create Human's at all? Human's, as we have seen, are - if not the source of Evil - are the sole recipient of all suffering. (I would add animals, but many Christians claim animals either don't suffer or they deserve the suffering we impose on them).

God, being Perfect, had no need to create a world in which there was suffering, and if he created Humans for the sole purpose of having things worship him, or entertain him, he chose a very sick way to do it.

After all, he could have made an infinite number of Gods.

Theists argue against this by claiming there can only be one God. By what rule? They claim that there would be a power struggle, but how so? If you have Perfect Beings that have no need to compete over resources, and are All Loving, how is there any struggle? After all, Christians are happy to claim Jesus was perfect and gets along with God, so why was God unable to make even greater beings than Jesus?

Angels, you say? Well, they don't exist, but the story of Satan only shows how a lesser being than a God would inevitably lead to evil and suffering - and he allows it.

So, Theists have to logically explain why an Omnipotent, All-Loving God allows evil and suffering, when he could have avoided all of it to begin with by either not creating beings, or making Gods equal to him.

Checkmate, Theists.

[tam]

Peace to you!

Sorry I was away for a while.

Peace again!

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #86]

I responded to that in my original post.

OK, so help me out.
You said:

Why could evil not exist if an omnipotent/benevolent/scient god exists?

God is defined as Perfect: All-Loving, All-Powerful, All-Knowing. ALL-GOOD.
If there were two Gods, why would they fight? Why would they produce Evil, if they were all Loving? Wouldn't they strive to get along?

Are you suggesting that perfect friends must come to blows and create Evil?

How would your God bring Evil into the world if it was just himself and another equal God, who is also All-Loving? All-Good? Then whence cometh evil?

In my original post, I also questioned your premise that it would even be possible to create another being that is equal to God (in all ways).

First - you cannot have equal "Gods" in this scenario. One will always have been the creator of the other. One will always have been the created. This means that one of the two (or more) cannot ever have been eternal. One of the two (or more) will always have something that the other(s) never had.

Second: what you seem to be proposing sounds more like it would be cloning (and even then it is subject to the above points). If God did not want clones of Himself, but rather free and individual beings (who choose life, who choose to do good, to choose the right), then He would need to take into account that some of those beings might not choose to be (or to remain) good.

The Adversary (the one called Satan) was created good, but corrupted himself. You cannot blame his self-corruption on the fact that he was created as lesser than God, because Michael the arkangel was also created lesser than God, but did not corrupt himself, and instead remained completely faithful to God (and to God's Son).


Third: your position seems to rests upon the assumption that wisdom (and perhaps also love) is something that can be downloaded, rather than something that must be learned and/or chosen. If such things cannot simply be 'downloaded' so to speak, then your premise fails.




Peace again to you

[JehovahsWitness]

I have heard some try to weakly suggest that God wanted humans because ... [this] somehow fulfill his desire to own a pet.

DOES GOD VIEW HUMANS AS HIS PETS?

Being British, this might not be as offensive as some might suggest as the Bristish cherish their pets and often treat them as beloved members of the family. Still the question implies God sees humans as loved animals and if the bible is to be believed this is far from the case.

Jesus taught his disciples to pray to God as "Our Father" and a good father cherishes and appreciated his children. We note that the bible says God said at Creation "Let us make man in our image", something he is not recorded as saying about any animal. So according to the bible, humans reflect the divine in that they are moral creatures capable of making intelligent decisions based on reason rather than instinct.

CONCLUSION: Humans are not and can never be equal to God in rank, intelligence, power or age. But this does not mean God views them as housepets. Rather the bible indicates God views humans as children in that they mirror aspects of himself and all carry a spark of the divine in them.





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[boatsnguitars]

In my original post, I also questioned your premise that it would even be possible to create another being that is equal to God (in all ways).

First - you cannot have equal "Gods" in this scenario. One will always have been the creator of the other. One will always have been the created. This means that one of the two (or more) cannot ever have been eternal. One of the two (or more) will always have something that the other(s) never had.

They could be equal in all other respects, and if Perfectly Virtuous, wouldn't be envious. Unles you believe Envy is a virtue.

Second: what you seem to be proposing sounds more like it would be cloning (and even then it is subject to the above points). If God did not want clones of Himself, but rather free and individual beings (who choose life, who choose to do good, to choose the right), then He would need to take into account that some of those beings might not choose to be (or to remain) good.

Is God not a Free Being and also Good? Why is it possible for God to exist, but not another one?
You are claiming that, simply by luck, the one God that just happened to be in existence is perfect good and all powerful - but limited: it can't make another being like himself that wouldn't turn evil, etc.
That's quite an indictment on your God!

The Adversary (the one called Satan) was created good, but corrupted himself. You cannot blame his self-corruption on the fact that he was created as lesser than God, because Michael the arkangel was also created lesser than God, but did not corrupt himself, and instead remained completely faithful to God (and to God's Son).

Right, angels were purposely created by God to be beneath him - according to the myth. Once he realized the danger of powerful lesser creatures, he reacted by 'eating lead, smoking, drinking, and doing everything he could' to make such inferior creatures as Man so he wouldn't be bothered by their uppity-ness. He made then expendable, disposable, even created a trash heap for them for eternity.

Third: your position seems to rests upon the assumption that wisdom (and perhaps also love) is something that can be downloaded, rather than something that must be learned and/or chosen. If such things cannot simply be 'downloaded' so to speak, then your premise fails.

Again, that's a limit on your God. And, I really don't know what you're talking about. Philosophically, I see no problem.

Again, there is no reason God couldn't have made Gods: perfectly Good, Loving, etc. but instead, he went to the extreme and created the conditions for, and the creatures for, a world that has resulted in pain and misery for trillions of people - and he purposely did it.

I think nothing shows the ineptitude of a parent more than purposely creating a hostile environment for ones children.

[JehovahsWitness]

I think nothing shows the ineptitude of a parent more than purposely creating a hostile environment for ones children.

I would agree. Are you trying to suggest that is what Jehovah (YHWH) God did?

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

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[TRANSPONDER]

I think nothing shows the ineptitude of a parent more than purposely creating a hostile environment for ones children.

I would agree. Are you trying to suggest that is what Jehovah (YHWH) God did?

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

ADAM &EVE, .THE GARDEN OF EDEN and ...THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD

I doubt it. No more than pointing out that Biblegod is evil means that we think that God is real and is evil - a common mistake that God -believers often make. we think it makes the Bible claim incoherent and thus unbelievable.

But you carry on Such clumsy attempts to wrongfoot atheists does us no harm and your case no good.

[boatsnguitars]

I would agree. Are you trying to suggest that is what Jehovah (YHWH) God did?

Is that a photo? Oh, wait, no, it's an idealized drawing made for children....

So, JW, why is there sin if God, the Father, didn't put a "DO NOT PUSH THIS BUTTON" (aka the Fruit Tree) in that bucholic setting you seem to enjoy a little too much?

Seems a huge oversight, no?

Answer these two questions, please:

1. If I'm a parent and I put a landmine in the middle of the room, then tell my toddler not to step on it, who is responsible if it's stepped on - especially considering I don't even use the room? Especially if I see all and don't stop him from stepping on it?

2. Remember, you claim God already has a perfect place where there is no suffering (Heaven): Isn't this proof of concept, so why aren't we all born there in the first place?

JW, this must infiltrate that steel trap of a brain of yours a little bit, no?

[JehovahsWitness]

I would agree. Are you trying to suggest that is what Jehovah (YHWH) God did?

Answer these two questions, please:

... Did you answer the question I asked you? Or do you expect me to anwser your questions without you answering mine?

... Are you trying to suggest that is what Jehovah (YHWH) God did?

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