Born from above!

[Bobcat]

Jesus says you must be born from above.

Scripture says he who is born from above is from heaven.

Since man does not really know where heaven is how can he know who comes from heaven or who is from above?

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."

John 3:7
7 Do not be astonished that I said to you, "You must be born from above”.


John 3:31
31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things. The one who comes from heaven is above all.

So, are you born from above? Are you from heaven?

[1213]

... which should still apply metaphorically to all Christians...

Why should it be taken metaphorically? Who made you the authority to tell what Christians should do?

Because you said yourself it can't be done actually as Jesus is not on earth anymore. So it has to be metaphorical, unless you say that this teaching or instruction doesn't apply now, in which case, what teaching or instruction does, since Jesus is no longer on earth? This hole you dig gets deeper.

It was said in that situation and time and nothing in the Bible suggests it was just metaphorical. And if we think it was metaphorical, one could as well say, also the giving money is just metaphorical.

Many other instructions are not same way bind to the situation. But, it would be best to check them case by case, if you want to know more accurately. I think the context shows how it is meant to be taken.

[TRANSPONDER]

... which should still apply metaphorically to all Christians...

Why should it be taken metaphorically? Who made you the authority to tell what Christians should do?

Because you said yourself it can't be done actually as Jesus is not on earth anymore. So it has to be metaphorical, unless you say that this teaching or instruction doesn't apply now, in which case, what teaching or instruction does, since Jesus is no longer on earth? This hole you dig gets deeper.

It was said in that situation and time and nothing in the Bible suggests it was just metaphorical. And if we think it was metaphorical, one could as well say, also the giving money is just metaphorical.

Many other instructions are not same way bind to the situation. But, it would be best to check them case by case, if you want to know more accurately. I think the context shows how it is meant to be taken.

That sounds to me like using Theist - speak to cherry -pick the Bible to suit yourself. Forgiving sins was done then. Does that mean it died with him and doesn't exist any more? Jesus prayed while he was alive, healed when he was alive, did stuff while he was alive. Does that mean it's all gone? Isn't it clear that Fasting and prayer was done by him and prayer is still ok but fasting has sorta gone out of style. Like giving all your money to the poor. Just isn't so popular a teaching these days. But you carry on and decide which teachings you like and which you don't.

[JoeyKnothead]

That sounds to me like using Theist - speak to cherry -pick the Bible to suit yourself. Forgiving sins was done then. Does that mean it died with him and doesn't exist any more? Jesus prayed while he was alive, healed when he was alive, did stuff while he was alive. Does that mean it's all gone? Isn't it clear that Fasting and prayer was done by him and prayer is still ok but fasting has sorta gone out of style. Like giving all your money to the poor. Just isn't so popular a teaching these days. But you carry on and decide which teachings you like and which you don't.

Great analysis.

We see this pick and chose deal in the various denominations, and the way individuals within those denominations carry on. Beyond that, we see it when the old testament is applied in some cases, but disregarded in others as "the old covenant".

Folks have a covenant with God, but God's never shown to have one with humans. God is what the believer believes, that's all.

[Bobcat]

God’s ways are not man’s ways. Why He does it this way I don’t understand. I do know how to find Him because I’ve done it. I stumbled upon it as I searched scripture years ago.

The LORD says this;

“Your ways are not my ways nor are your thoughts my thoughts. As high as the heavens are above the earth that’s how high my ways are above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.”

You've done nothing but present unconfirmable (and unsupported) claims.

You have nothing but your preaching by which we may consider your reliability as a teller of truth. It doesn't bode well that all you can do is quote bible claims in support of Bible claims.

Follow my lead and you will see. That is the proof.

“If you continue in my word you’re truly my disciple then you’ll know the truth and the truth will set you free.”

Don't get the idea that we don't understand, we do. We know how compelling it is that the conviction comes through Faith that God is speaking to them and the truth is to be found my matching personal opinions to Bibletext. But you have to understand that many of us have been there and grew out of it. Saying that we should do what you are doing or have done is not going to convince any of us who know that people in other religions are as convinced of their god as you are of yours.

The Op is about being born from above,so of course the thread discusses it, but the Forum is about debate, and the place the debate gets to is that swearing that we only have to do as you urge us to find God is simply a waste of effort because all reason says otherwise.

This isn’t just for you or those who debate against Christianity. It is for all who read this and don’t debate as well. Mostly it is for me, to keep me in the light.

Only Jesus has done what I’ve done. No one else. This isn’t something that is short lived. I’ve been convinced that this is the way for over twenty five years. Only God could have taught me this cause I wouldn’t have made up something so difficult. I was a so called born again Christian until reading certain verses got me thinking about what Jesus really said.

“As for me says the LORD; This is the covenant I have made with them, My spirit which is upon you and my words which I have put into your mouth shall never leave your mouth nor the mouths of your children nor the mouths of your children’s children from now on and forever.”

[1213]

That sounds to me like using Theist - speak to cherry -pick the Bible to suit yourself. Forgiving sins was done then. Does that mean it died with him and doesn't exist any more? Jesus prayed while he was alive, healed when he was alive, did stuff while he was alive. Does that mean it's all gone? Isn't it clear that Fasting and prayer was done by him and prayer is still ok but fasting has sorta gone out of style. Like giving all your money to the poor. Just isn't so popular a teaching these days. But you carry on and decide which teachings you like and which you don't.

I don't think it is about what I like. Jesus is not on earth, so I can't go to him and follow, even if I would like to do so. That is why I have to do something else. But, otherwise I think his guidelines and ideas are valid, for example people should not have money as their God.

[TRANSPONDER]

God’s ways are not man’s ways. Why He does it this way I don’t understand. I do know how to find Him because I’ve done it. I stumbled upon it as I searched scripture years ago.

The LORD says this;

“Your ways are not my ways nor are your thoughts my thoughts. As high as the heavens are above the earth that’s how high my ways are above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.”

You've done nothing but present unconfirmable (and unsupported) claims.

You have nothing but your preaching by which we may consider your reliability as a teller of truth. It doesn't bode well that all you can do is quote bible claims in support of Bible claims.

Follow my lead and you will see. That is the proof.

“If you continue in my word you’re truly my disciple then you’ll know the truth and the truth will set you free.”

Don't get the idea that we don't understand, we do. We know how compelling it is that the conviction comes through Faith that God is speaking to them and the truth is to be found my matching personal opinions to Bibletext. But you have to understand that many of us have been there and grew out of it. Saying that we should do what you are doing or have done is not going to convince any of us who know that people in other religions are as convinced of their god as you are of yours.

The Op is about being born from above,so of course the thread discusses it, but the Forum is about debate, and the place the debate gets to is that swearing that we only have to do as you urge us to find God is simply a waste of effort because all reason says otherwise.

This isn’t just for you or those who debate against Christianity. It is for all who read this and don’t debate as well. Mostly it is for me, to keep me in the light.

Only Jesus has done what I’ve done. No one else. This isn’t something that is short lived. I’ve been convinced that this is the way for over twenty five years. Only God could have taught me this cause I wouldn’t have made up something so difficult. I was a so called born again Christian until reading certain verses got me thinking about what Jesus really said.

“As for me says the LORD; This is the covenant I have made with them, My spirit which is upon you and my words which I have put into your mouth shall never leave your mouth nor the mouths of your children nor the mouths of your children’s children from now on and forever.”

Well,you go right on believing that and good luck. But others who believe different dogmas and even religions may say the same. So, just for the record, give me one good reason why I should believe what you claim here? Again, you can believe it and even post the claim here. But it means nothing and makes no case. Really, it doesn't. Not even when you can attach a bit of Bibletext.

[TRANSPONDER]

That sounds to me like using Theist - speak to cherry -pick the Bible to suit yourself. Forgiving sins was done then. Does that mean it died with him and doesn't exist any more? Jesus prayed while he was alive, healed when he was alive, did stuff while he was alive. Does that mean it's all gone? Isn't it clear that Fasting and prayer was done by him and prayer is still ok but fasting has sorta gone out of style. Like giving all your money to the poor. Just isn't so popular a teaching these days. But you carry on and decide which teachings you like and which you don't.

I don't think it is about what I like. Jesus is not on earth, so I can't go to him and follow, even if I would like to do so. That is why I have to do something else. But, otherwise I think his guidelines and ideas are valid, for example people should not have money as their God.

I think it is about what you like, or prefer or what is convenient. Which is ok. But it is not what Jesus taught. If that admonition to give all the money to the poor and 'following Jesus' is still considered a thing today even though Jesus is dead is waved away by you on the grounds that Jesus is no longer walking around (though I thought he was still supposed to be there watching from heaven), then why don't you wave all the Bible teachings away? It has to be picking what you like and dismissing what doesn't suit you, whatever you like to say. Such as the red herring of people making money their god. The uncharitable would say quite a few Believers do that as they set money over their god in not giving it to the poor.

But then who does that? Not many. What they do is just what everyone else does in all religions or none. Which is why I argue that Christians do not in fact live a Christian life, but the same secular life as everyone else, and just pretend it's following Christ.

[Tcg]

Only Jesus has done what I’ve done. No one else. This isn’t something that is short lived. I’ve been convinced that this is the way for over twenty five years. Only God could have taught me this cause I wouldn’t have made up something so difficult.

Moderator Comment

You are ignoring the following Guidelines on preaching:

3. Do not portray yourself as speaking directly for God or as a special messenger of God.

6. Do not claim that you alone know the truth and everyone else is in error. Do not claim that only your interpretation of scripture is the only correct one.

10. Do not present your views dogmatically. Instead, preface your views with "According to my interpretation" or "I believe that God would" or "In my opinion".


Please review the [url=viewtopic.php?p=536537#p536537Guidelines on preaching[/url].



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[1213]

...
I think it is about what you like, or prefer or what is convenient. Which is ok. But it is not what Jesus taught. ..

How is telling, "Jesus is not on earth, so it can't be literally done as he said to the rich man", not what Jesus taught? I think I just keep his words accurately, without twisting them like many atheists seem to do.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
I think it is about what you like, or prefer or what is convenient. Which is ok. But it is not what Jesus taught. ..

How is telling, "Jesus is not on earth, so it can't be literally done as he said to the rich man", not what Jesus taught? I think I just keep his words accurately, without twisting them like many atheists seem to do.

Well, for starters it isn't in the Bible as what Jesus said or anything else, but is what you posted. You seem to have confused that with Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

But what you posted while correct in that the bodily Jesus can't be literally followed as he is dead, he is supposedly still alive in spirit and can still be followed through His Church, or religion if you don't like any of the churches, but the poor will be with you always and the teaching can still be followed and money is real as ever it was and the only reason not to do the exhortation that Jesus made according to Matthew is because neither you nor most other Believers have any intention of doing what Jesus said to do if it doesn't suit you and thus you choose to not follow Biblical teachings on the grounds that Jesus is dead and gone.

Which is on the same page with atheists indeed. But then stuff that you do agree with - that's still valid today if it suits you. That's the cherry - picking. But you carry right on trying to wriggle out of why you shouldn't follow this inconvenient instruction but you and everyone else should follow a different one, if you approve of it. I'm having a lot of fun with this.

Give to the poor? How is that judging justly? Why should we cheat those who have to pay for what they have and use their taxes to pay for what the poor cannot afford? No, that is not what a godly nation should be doing. Instead those who are making lots of money are being blessed by God and they should be given even more of it. That is what the gospel says, and if it doesn't..well it should.