Islam was started by an illiterate businessman, who plagerized the OT and NT, claimed that women were chattel.
It was declared the final evolution of Abraham's religion (sorry, Mormons) - the final word of God.
Debate:
Why is Islam wrong?
Islam
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boatsnguitars
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Re: Islam
Post #2Well, there's two arguments there - the basis for believing it (or not) and whether it is something good to have or not.
I'll leave it to the religions to fight it out which is the right one. I for one am not persuaded of any god - claim, so which one of them is not a problem.
We then get the 'proof of the Holy Book' Where Islam gets sunk along with Judaism and Christianity if the Book is wrong. Apart from revelation and miracles. It sorta goes like this - even if the Adam and Noah stories are scientifically invalid, the evidence of the miracles, prophecies and divine properties of the Books are enough proof.
Islam uses 'science in the Bible' and prophecy, just as Christianity does. They are rather similar
where vague stuff like the mountains being fixed or a sky spread like a tent or the earth and sky wearing out is similar and invalid in both books. There are the claims of science in the Quran like the arguable number of bones or joints, which any 6th c Greek physician could have told a Muslim scholar, the Fly's wing cure which is so laughable that Muslim apologists have to dismiss it as only in the Hadiths, not the Quran, the 'knocking star' which is rubbish as a pulsar only 'knocks' when the light pulsation is put through a radio. There's a passage about the sun sinking into a swamp which is a human view, not God's, which is rather like the 'cloud cover'apologetic for the sun apparently made after the light. It only works as a limited human viewpoint, not a god's.
The account of the method of reproduction is as bad and fudged as the genetic modification of sheep by tying them to a striped stick. Islam even has it 'stop the sun' story, with the moon splitting. The 'Flood' equivalent is of course fresh and salt water do not mix. Which is false, and i can assure you - all friends, that Muslim apologists can battle as hard for that as YE creationists can for the Flood.
And then one I like the way I like the debunk of Exodus. The battle in the Low place. This seems to be quite fiddled in trying to make the 'low place'; the Dead Sea. But the battle seems to come down to a battle near Antioch between the Persians and Byzantine emperor Heraclius. So it is not advanced knowledge of global geography, but fuddled records of recent history for their time.
Finally there is the equivalent of the claim that the Bible, written by many different people is 'coherent'. Which it really isn't. One could say the same about - say the Conan books. They are all on the same subject (with a bit of fiddling, sometimes) but the difference in style between Howard and Jordan makes it clear we have different writers. Or with Star trek where first and new generation stories were clearly a different ethos, and Star wars now looks like the earlier Testament has been replaced by a New Star ward ethos, pretty much rejected by the earlier fanbase, just as Judaism rejects the NT.
The Quran case is different; it is amazing and wonderful, I was assured by a Muslim partner in discussion on a former board where he reckoned he had learned Quranic Arabic but could never write it so it sounded convincing. I argued that one could say the same for Shakespearian English: one can understand it, and even imitate it, but to write Shakespeare convincingly would take poetic genius.
Which is where I suggested that the Quran was written by a genius poet, which is (I gather) what you had in the court of Caliph Uthman. I do not buy it that an angel dictated God's word to an Illiterate prophet in a cave, and that the Quran was put together by memory of followers and a few bits of text scratched on pebbles and camel hide. This is a tome written by the best court poetic minds expressing the views, beliefs and opinion of the Caliph at the time, and anything before was destroyed. Rather as the Church in Constantine's time, having codified the Bible as they saw fit, ordered every other Bible destroyed.
So there is my response to the claims for Islam, and I would prefer not to look at its' record socially. I'd only say that I'd choose even adopting Christianity over being a Muslim.
I'll leave it to the religions to fight it out which is the right one. I for one am not persuaded of any god - claim, so which one of them is not a problem.
We then get the 'proof of the Holy Book' Where Islam gets sunk along with Judaism and Christianity if the Book is wrong. Apart from revelation and miracles. It sorta goes like this - even if the Adam and Noah stories are scientifically invalid, the evidence of the miracles, prophecies and divine properties of the Books are enough proof.
Islam uses 'science in the Bible' and prophecy, just as Christianity does. They are rather similar
where vague stuff like the mountains being fixed or a sky spread like a tent or the earth and sky wearing out is similar and invalid in both books. There are the claims of science in the Quran like the arguable number of bones or joints, which any 6th c Greek physician could have told a Muslim scholar, the Fly's wing cure which is so laughable that Muslim apologists have to dismiss it as only in the Hadiths, not the Quran, the 'knocking star' which is rubbish as a pulsar only 'knocks' when the light pulsation is put through a radio. There's a passage about the sun sinking into a swamp which is a human view, not God's, which is rather like the 'cloud cover'apologetic for the sun apparently made after the light. It only works as a limited human viewpoint, not a god's.The account of the method of reproduction is as bad and fudged as the genetic modification of sheep by tying them to a striped stick. Islam even has it 'stop the sun' story, with the moon splitting. The 'Flood' equivalent is of course fresh and salt water do not mix. Which is false, and i can assure you - all friends, that Muslim apologists can battle as hard for that as YE creationists can for the Flood.
And then one I like the way I like the debunk of Exodus. The battle in the Low place. This seems to be quite fiddled in trying to make the 'low place'; the Dead Sea. But the battle seems to come down to a battle near Antioch between the Persians and Byzantine emperor Heraclius. So it is not advanced knowledge of global geography, but fuddled records of recent history for their time.
Finally there is the equivalent of the claim that the Bible, written by many different people is 'coherent'. Which it really isn't. One could say the same about - say the Conan books. They are all on the same subject (with a bit of fiddling, sometimes) but the difference in style between Howard and Jordan makes it clear we have different writers. Or with Star trek where first and new generation stories were clearly a different ethos, and Star wars now looks like the earlier Testament has been replaced by a New Star ward ethos, pretty much rejected by the earlier fanbase, just as Judaism rejects the NT.
The Quran case is different; it is amazing and wonderful, I was assured by a Muslim partner in discussion on a former board where he reckoned he had learned Quranic Arabic but could never write it so it sounded convincing. I argued that one could say the same for Shakespearian English: one can understand it, and even imitate it, but to write Shakespeare convincingly would take poetic genius.
Which is where I suggested that the Quran was written by a genius poet, which is (I gather) what you had in the court of Caliph Uthman. I do not buy it that an angel dictated God's word to an Illiterate prophet in a cave, and that the Quran was put together by memory of followers and a few bits of text scratched on pebbles and camel hide. This is a tome written by the best court poetic minds expressing the views, beliefs and opinion of the Caliph at the time, and anything before was destroyed. Rather as the Church in Constantine's time, having codified the Bible as they saw fit, ordered every other Bible destroyed.
So there is my response to the claims for Islam, and I would prefer not to look at its' record socially. I'd only say that I'd choose even adopting Christianity over being a Muslim.
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The Nice Centurion
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Re: Islam
Post #3The beginnings of Islam are uncertain. Mohamed has a chance of 50% to never have existed.boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:22 pm Islam was started by an illiterate businessman, who plagerized the OT and NT, claimed that women were chattel.
You neednt feel sorry for no mormons here, since Joseph Smith publically announced to become a second Mohamed.boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:22 pm It was declared the final evolution of Abraham's religion (sorry, Mormons) - the final word of God.
AND mormonism understands itself as the restoration of the word of god, not addition.
I would rather debate:
Why did the OP put out a loaded question for debate?
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again
”
"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon
"
"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates"
”"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon
""Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates
"Re: Islam
Post #4[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #3]
Muhammad most certainly existed. He began his religion after having visions and hearing voices in his head telling him to start a new religion because all the others were wrong. At first, he only had a small following, but then he began torturing and killing people who would not convert. After a few years, about 10 - his following was large enough that he tried taking out the city of Mecca three times. The inhabitants of Mecca fought tooth and nail but then got tired of it so finally on the third invasion of Mohamad and his hoards the Meccan's just gave up and didn't fight.
This is common knowledge to those who have researched this.
Muhammad most certainly existed. He began his religion after having visions and hearing voices in his head telling him to start a new religion because all the others were wrong. At first, he only had a small following, but then he began torturing and killing people who would not convert. After a few years, about 10 - his following was large enough that he tried taking out the city of Mecca three times. The inhabitants of Mecca fought tooth and nail but then got tired of it so finally on the third invasion of Mohamad and his hoards the Meccan's just gave up and didn't fight.
This is common knowledge to those who have researched this.
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The Nice Centurion
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Re: Islam
Post #5[Replying to Muckman in post #4]
Interesting here how you are yourself proof that not only Islamists cant do without a real live historic Mohammed, but anti-Islamists also cannot bear life without believing in the historicity of the good man.
Your bizarre description on his live not even fits into the most conservative look on his biography.
Yes, we have one single propaganda biography of him, written centurys after he allegedly existed.
No one ever knew of him before that was written, and Mohammed was no name but a title. Hmmm.
Research means you fully read that, of course?
I like the most the part where the stones and trees personally spoke to him at the start: "You are the prophet of god!"
Mohammed must have thought himself in a place like Lewis Carolls Wonderland.
Thats my favorite part! Whats yours?
Interesting here how you are yourself proof that not only Islamists cant do without a real live historic Mohammed, but anti-Islamists also cannot bear life without believing in the historicity of the good man.
Your bizarre description on his live not even fits into the most conservative look on his biography.
Yes, we have one single propaganda biography of him, written centurys after he allegedly existed.
No one ever knew of him before that was written, and Mohammed was no name but a title. Hmmm.
Research means you fully read that, of course?
I like the most the part where the stones and trees personally spoke to him at the start: "You are the prophet of god!"
Mohammed must have thought himself in a place like Lewis Carolls Wonderland.
Thats my favorite part! Whats yours?
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again”
"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon"
"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates"
”"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon
""Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates
"Re: Islam
Post #6[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #5]
My best part is when Muhammad ascended into heaven from the Temple Mount - and hell - years before he died in 632. While in heaven he greeted the prophets and spoke to God. God then agreed to lower the number of required ritual prayers from 50 a day to only five.
What a guy!
My best part is when Muhammad ascended into heaven from the Temple Mount - and hell - years before he died in 632. While in heaven he greeted the prophets and spoke to God. God then agreed to lower the number of required ritual prayers from 50 a day to only five.
What a guy!
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Diogenes
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Religions Ranked by Absurdity of Their Myths
Post #7Wondering who agrees or would rearrange the following list ranking religious documents as portraying the goofiest, most absurd and ridiculous claims if taken literally, with '1'' being the goofiest. I'm thinking more in terms of "events" rather than doctrine.
1. Islam- you can start with the examples given by Muckman and The Nice Centurion.
2. LDS- the Mormons. Have you read their book?!
3. The Jewish Bible (OT.... Tanakh). It's actually goofier than the Book of Mormon, but Mormons include the Bible as scripture, so they get stuck with a double portion of goofy.
4. The New Testament - Strange, yes, with people popping up from the grave, flying corpses, assorted 'miracles,' but at least no talking asses and crazy creation stories and Noah's Ark. OTOH, there is the Book of Revelation. Maybe #4 should be moved up... way up.
1. Islam- you can start with the examples given by Muckman and The Nice Centurion.
2. LDS- the Mormons. Have you read their book?!
3. The Jewish Bible (OT.... Tanakh). It's actually goofier than the Book of Mormon, but Mormons include the Bible as scripture, so they get stuck with a double portion of goofy.
4. The New Testament - Strange, yes, with people popping up from the grave, flying corpses, assorted 'miracles,' but at least no talking asses and crazy creation stories and Noah's Ark. OTOH, there is the Book of Revelation. Maybe #4 should be moved up... way up.
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The Nice Centurion
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Re: Religions Ranked by Absurdity of Their Myths
Post #8[Replying to Diogenes in post #7]
While the Mahabharata, though it reads like a Marvel Superheros against Supervillains long comic book cicle, has rather stringent logic as a whole.
I like it how the last Superhero standing, in snowy mountains desists from deserting that doggie when invited to enter hinduism heaven alone.
While the Mahabharata, though it reads like a Marvel Superheros against Supervillains long comic book cicle, has rather stringent logic as a whole.
I like it how the last Superhero standing, in snowy mountains desists from deserting that doggie when invited to enter hinduism heaven alone.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again”
"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon"
"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates"
”"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon
""Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates
"-
1213
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Re: Islam
Post #9Quran says that people should believe Jesus.
“…The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah… …believe in Allah and His messengers…”
Quran 4:171, https://legacy.quran.com/4/171
Islam is wrong, if they don't do that.
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boatsnguitars
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Re: Islam
Post #10This is going to come as a shock to you, but they believe they are following all Allah's messengers, including Jesus. Religious people! rolleyes.... am I right?1213 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 2:31 amQuran says that people should believe Jesus.
“…The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah… …believe in Allah and His messengers…”
Quran 4:171, https://legacy.quran.com/4/171
Islam is wrong, if they don't do that.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
