Do Fabulous Bible Stories Prove Errancy?

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JoeMama
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Do Fabulous Bible Stories Prove Errancy?

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Post by JoeMama »

Do stories like the one in Numbers, about a donkey scolding his master, show that the Bible cannot be believed in its entirety?

Here is the donkey story:

Numbers 22:21-30

21 Balaam was riding on his donkey…23 When the donkey…turned off the road into a field Balaam beat it to get it back on the road. 25 When the donkey…pressed close to the wall, crushing Balaam’s foot against it…he beat the donkey again. When the donkey lay down under Balaam, he was angry and beat it with his staff. 28 Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam,

“What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?” 29 Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now.” 30 The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?”

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Adonai Yahweh
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Re: Do Fabulous Bible Stories Prove Errancy?

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Post by Adonai Yahweh »

"The bible is meant to be read with spiritual understanding not human wisdom ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 )
And, you are sure of this, why?
Because it is applicable to other things in life as well . When you are solving a maths problem you are not going to bring your understanding of Shakespeare to help solve the maths problem but rather you will bring your understanding of mathematical concepts to solve the math problem . Different topics require different understandings the same is the bible . It is read with spiritual understanding

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Re: Do Fabulous Bible Stories Prove Errancy?

Post #42

Post by brunumb »

Adonai Yahweh wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:06 pm Snakes have the capacity to have legs but have been inhibited ... like said in the video .
Does the video make mention of what happened to the vocal cords?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Do Fabulous Bible Stories Prove Errancy?

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

Adonai Yahweh wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:12 pm "The bible is meant to be read with spiritual understanding not human wisdom ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 )
And, you are sure of this, why?
Because it is applicable to other things in life as well . When you are solving a maths problem you are not going to bring your understanding of Shakespeare to help solve the maths problem but rather you will bring your understanding of mathematical concepts to solve the math problem . Different topics require different understandings the same is the bible . It is read with spiritual understanding
But the problem is what is the mathematics and what is the Shakespeare? If we bring Faithbased gullibility to the Bible, we are not going to get a rational answer but a faithbased answer (which is what has been wanted from the Q document to the present day Christian apologetics. This is the Shakespeare:, entertaining, impressive,emotional and often more persuasive than the facts. But it is not Facts.

The mathematics of the Bible is analysis, critique, rationality. That is the way to get at the facts, not 'spiritual understanding' which is either make stuff up or accept the stuff others have made up.

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Re: Do Fabulous Bible Stories Prove Errancy?

Post #44

Post by Adonai Yahweh »

But the problem is what is the mathematics and what is the Shakespeare? If we bring Faithbased gullibility to the Bible, we are not going to get a rational answer but a faithbased answer (which is what has been wanted from the Q document to the present day Christian apologetics. This is the Shakespeare:, entertaining, impressive,emotional and often more persuasive than the facts. But it is not Facts.

The mathematics of the Bible is analysis, critique, rationality. That is the way to get at the facts, not 'spiritual understanding' which is either make stuff up or accept the stuff others have made up.
So you didnt understand my example . The point I was making is that different topics require different understanding . Morals and ethics is not determined by rationality . Shakespearean stories were not just for entertainment , they spoke of common social dilemmas that were applicable to the English society in 15th and 16th century .. in which those social dilemmas are still applicable today . Some of the recurring themes are love , power , politics , identity , fate , revenge , free will etc . Shakespearean plays are empirical observation of English society during that time . So again with the Bible , rationality can not be applied because it moral guide to life . Moral and ethics are not determined by rationality .

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Re: Do Fabulous Bible Stories Prove Errancy?

Post #45

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Adonai Yahweh wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:56 am
But the problem is what is the mathematics and what is the Shakespeare? If we bring Faithbased gullibility to the Bible, we are not going to get a rational answer but a faithbased answer (which is what has been wanted from the Q document to the present day Christian apologetics. This is the Shakespeare:, entertaining, impressive,emotional and often more persuasive than the facts. But it is not Facts.

The mathematics of the Bible is analysis, critique, rationality. That is the way to get at the facts, not 'spiritual understanding' which is either make stuff up or accept the stuff others have made up.
So you didn't understand my example . The point I was making is that different topics require different understanding . Morals and ethics is not determined by rationality . Shakespearean stories were not just for entertainment , they spoke of common social dilemmas that were applicable to the English society in 15th and 16th century .. in which those social dilemmas are still applicable today . Some of the recurring themes are love , power , politics , identity , fate , revenge , free will etc . Shakespearean plays are empirical observation of English society during that time . So again with the Bible , rationality can not be applied because it moral guide to life . Moral and ethics are not determined by rationality .
I understood your point - you didn't understand mine. Maybe you missed all the posts about Morality and ethics. Always a problem for the philosophers of the past (Lawmakers didn't worry about what morals were, they just tried to make them work). It was, effectively, the same puzzle as where art and music came from? It was why the skeptics of the 18th c still said 'God' when it came to creation, because they hadn't any other explanation.

Then Darwin gave the mechanism and we didn't need God anymore to explain evolution. Morality was still a puzzle up until DNA showed how instinct worked, and the hypothesis is that morality evolved. First instinctively and then consciously. Theists still have trouble with this as they can't get over the need for a Cosmic Law of morality. There isn't one, any more than there is a cosmic law of art, literature, music or dance. We don't know why we evolved these things..well, we do, with writing.There is a fossil record from the need to keep records through recording information to history, myth and literature. Musicians have sometimes foxed themselves in trying to get down to what music is at bottom; they pared away everything man-made and found there was nothing left. Like religion, the bathwater had been emptied and there was no detectable baby there. It was all man -made. But the point is, nobody has dismissed music, art or literature as invalid or unworkable just because it is all man -made, and neither is morals and ethics. It is trying to make rules for what hasn't any Universals or objective basis, but that's not a bad thing as relative music and art like relative morals and ethics allow us to update. A God - given morality doesn't, and yet the church has to update or get left..let's put that in capitals...Left Behind. :) so it plays catch up and pretends that is what it was saying all the time. We see that in the Slavery debate, which saw the Bible fail as a moral guide along with Pickett's charge (though the South has been in denial ever since) and the scientific and biological mechanism for ethics was found with DNA.

The Bible is the Shakespeare of ethics; beautiful and poetic but not reliable. Science and Biology is the mathematics: practical, perhaps even dull, but factual.

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Re: Do Fabulous Bible Stories Prove Errancy?

Post #46

Post by Adonai Yahweh »

Then Darwin gave the mechanism and we didn't need God anymore to explain evolution. Morality was still a puzzle up until DNA showed how instinct worked, and the hypothesis is that morality evolved. First instinctively and then consciously. Theists still have trouble with this as they can't get over the need for a Cosmic Law of morality. There isn't one, any more than there is a cosmic law of art, literature, music or dance. We don't know why we evolved these things..well, we do, with writing.There is a fossil record from the need to keep records through recording information to history, myth and literature. Musicians have sometimes foxed themselves in trying to get down to what music is at bottom; they pared away everything man-made and found there was nothing left. Like religion, the bathwater had been emptied and there was no detectable baby there. It was all man -made. But the point is, nobody has dismissed music, art or literature as invalid or unworkable just because it is all man -made, and neither is morals and ethics. It is trying to make rules for what hasn't any Universals or objective basis, but that's not a bad thing as relative music and art like relative morals and ethics allow us to update. A God - given morality doesn't, and yet the church has to update or get left..let's put that in capitals...Left Behind. :) so it plays catch up and pretends that is what it was saying all the time. We see that in the Slavery debate, which saw the Bible fail as a moral guide along with Pickett's charge (though the South has been in denial ever since) and the scientific and biological mechanism for ethics was found with DNA.

The Bible is the Shakespeare of ethics; beautiful and poetic but not reliable. Science and Biology is the mathematics: practical, perhaps even dull, but factual.

Art , literature , music and dance are all creative expression and aesthetic appeal . Morality and ethics are universal . There is no current scientific evidence that proves moral and ethics is inherited through DNA that's a wild claim . Humans are inherently evil this explained through Freuds element of personality without the aspect of morality in our personality we are carnal beings . Darwin theories are limited because it cant explain the source of our creation , who or whatever created us was obviously is an intelligent being because of how complex humans were created . And even the idea of we just arrived on earth doesn't makes sense . Slavery in the South and all over the world was justified through social Darwinism and economic benefits . The church does need to update to modern times because modern times are immoral . Many of the teachings in the bible are beneficial to society today because the problems still are the same . Human nature has not evolved , we are still inherently evil that will never change .

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Re: Do Fabulous Bible Stories Prove Errancy?

Post #47

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Adonai Yahweh wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:52 pm
Then Darwin gave the mechanism and we didn't need God anymore to explain evolution. Morality was still a puzzle up until DNA showed how instinct worked, and the hypothesis is that morality evolved. First instinctively and then consciously. Theists still have trouble with this as they can't get over the need for a Cosmic Law of morality. There isn't one, any more than there is a cosmic law of art, literature, music or dance. We don't know why we evolved these things..well, we do, with writing.There is a fossil record from the need to keep records through recording information to history, myth and literature. Musicians have sometimes foxed themselves in trying to get down to what music is at bottom; they pared away everything man-made and found there was nothing left. Like religion, the bathwater had been emptied and there was no detectable baby there. It was all man -made. But the point is, nobody has dismissed music, art or literature as invalid or unworkable just because it is all man -made, and neither is morals and ethics. It is trying to make rules for what hasn't any Universals or objective basis, but that's not a bad thing as relative music and art like relative morals and ethics allow us to update. A God - given morality doesn't, and yet the church has to update or get left..let's put that in capitals...Left Behind. :) so it plays catch up and pretends that is what it was saying all the time. We see that in the Slavery debate, which saw the Bible fail as a moral guide along with Pickett's charge (though the South has been in denial ever since) and the scientific and biological mechanism for ethics was found with DNA.

The Bible is the Shakespeare of ethics; beautiful and poetic but not reliable. Science and Biology is the mathematics: practical, perhaps even dull, but factual.

Art , literature , music and dance are all creative expression and aesthetic appeal . Morality and ethics are universal . There is no current scientific evidence that proves moral and ethics is inherited through DNA that's a wild claim . Humans are inherently evil this explained through Freuds element of personality without the aspect of morality in our personality we are carnal beings . Darwin theories are limited because it cant explain the source of our creation , who or whatever created us was obviously is an intelligent being because of how complex humans were created . And even the idea of we just arrived on earth doesn't makes sense . Slavery in the South and all over the world was justified through social Darwinism and economic benefits . The church does need to update to modern times because modern times are immoral . Many of the teachings in the bible are beneficial to society today because the problems still are the same . Human nature has not evolved , we are still inherently evil that will never change .
Of course I will have issues with that. However life started,it has evolved and the evidence shows the development of co -operative behaviour in animals, family groups,packs and tribes. This is the instinctive basis of reciprocity and empathy and human reasoning builds on this. Morality is a universal debate in all cultures and no one society, religion Holy Book has exclusive dibs on it, nor is it reasonable to go to any one religion as the arbiter of how to live, rather it is religion that should be compared to human moral codes.

In that respect slavery is considered unacceptable, but in the Bible, it is acceptable, and from what you say it is acceptable in the reprehensible form of Southern slavery. Humanity is not inherently evil, but driven by instinct, good or bad, but tempered by reason.

That is really all I have to say about your perfectly appalling views expressed in your post.

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Re: Do Fabulous Bible Stories Prove Errancy?

Post #48

Post by Miles »

Adonai Yahweh wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:12 pm "The bible is meant to be read with spiritual understanding not human wisdom ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 )

1 Corinthians 2:14
People who do not have God’s Spirit do not accept the things that come from his Spirit. They think these things are foolish. They cannot understand them, because they can only be understood with the Spirit’s help.

But unless you have a verse that says everything god says comes from his spirit, you can't say there isn't stuff he's said that ordinary Joes like myself can't understand. Got such a verse?

.

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Re: Do Fabulous Bible Stories Prove Errancy?

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

Miles wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:33 pm
Adonai Yahweh wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:12 pm "The bible is meant to be read with spiritual understanding not human wisdom ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 )

1 Corinthians 2:14
People who do not have God’s Spirit do not accept the things that come from his Spirit. They think these things are foolish. They cannot understand them, because they can only be understood with the Spirit’s help.

But unless you have a verse that says everything god says comes from his spirit, you can't say there isn't stuff he's said that ordinary Joes like myself can't understand. Got such a verse?

.
Apart from the self - serving argument or claim that only the believer can Really understand what the Bible means (never mind what it says ;) ) I wonder whether that quote is a quotemine? At the time Paul wrote to his Corinthians, the Gospels hadn't even been written down, let alone the whole Bible put together.

Well He's absolutely on the money with the Pauline claim that only through Faith can one understand, know and be wise, and if this spiritual understanding conflicts with Logic, reality and what the Bible actually says, then logic, reality and what the Bible says is wrong.

That is the message from Paul and it is the only one the Christians haven't changed up to this day 'What we say is right on Faith'. All one has to do is pick which one of the believers and denomination are speaking with the spirit and which only think they are.

We certainly can't believe them as they don't believe it themselves. If you mention hell (or indeed slavery) they don't say 'Hell does not exist' or 'God is against slavery - because he hath said so in my head through spiritual understanding', because they know deep down, how daft that sounds and really gives the game away. Instead they pretend they are arguing from reason, evidence and what the Bible says, though such are miserable evasions like 'Find the exact words where God says that', when exact words are the last thing they need when Interpreting the Bible 'through the spirit' where any bit of keyword exegesis will do to support whatever popped into their head.

Verily, verily, I say unto ye, bretheren and sisteren, that Bible Truth is whatever they want it to say, never mind what it doth say; and double standards, special pleading, evasion, semantic fiddling, lawyer tricks, sophistry presented as philosophy and translation -shopping, making up all manner of things, far -fetched undisprovables, and denial of anything anyone saith, including scripture itself, is the stock in trade of these deceivers, perverters of the scripture and corruptors of mens' souls'.

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Re: Do Fabulous Bible Stories Prove Errancy?

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Post by Adonai Yahweh »

Of course I will have issues with that. However life started,it has evolved and the evidence shows the development of co -operative behaviour in animals, family groups,packs and tribes. This is the instinctive basis of reciprocity and empathy and human reasoning builds on this. Morality is a universal debate in all cultures and no one society, religion Holy Book has exclusive dibs on it, nor is it reasonable to go to any one religion as the arbiter of how to live, rather it is religion that should be compared to human moral codes.

In that respect slavery is considered unacceptable, but in the Bible, it is acceptable, and from what you say it is acceptable in the reprehensible form of Southern slavery. Humanity is not inherently evil, but driven by instinct, good or bad, but tempered by reason.

That is really all I have to say about your perfectly appalling views expressed in your post.
Firstly where did life start ? what is the source of creation ? And why are we created ? Secondly if morals is instinctive then they would be no need to teach people how to be good people , they would be no need for parents to teach their children to be well-mannered and relational to other individuals . The development of co-operative behaviour does not mean that the behaviour is good . There is a island called North Sentinel in which the Sentinelese are extremely hostile to outsiders and have killed many outsiders that have come peacefully immediately when you make contact with them they attack with arrows . Their co-operative behaviour is that outsiders should be killed whether armed or unarmed does that make such a behaviour right ??? Morality is not a universal debate there has always been a moral standard if you look at all the religions there are shared themes in each one Belief in a higher power , Moral and ethical principles ,Rituals and worship , Sacred texts and teachings , Life after death and spiritual realms , Community and fellowship and Seek for meaning and purpose . There is nothing appalling about my post it just a lack of comprehension if humans were inherently good there would be no need to debate morality because humans would automatically behave virtuously . Instinct if you are unaware is called the id in psychology which is evil because the id according to Freud represents the primitive and instinctual part of the mind that operates on the pleasure principle, seeking immediate gratification and disregarding societal norms or moral considerations. Give the scriptural reference and context that slavery is considered acceptable . Slavery in America , Africa , Australia was justified through social Darwinism . Social Darwinism applied the 'survival of the fittest' to human 'races' and said that 'might makes right'. Not only was survival of the fittest seen as something natural, but it was also morally correct. It was therefore natural, normal, and proper for the strong to thrive at the expense of the weak. There are many journal articles that you can look up that prove this . The evolutionist that you believe in was the same one that inspired the racial hierarchy and ensured the oppression of minorities for centuries . There are many churches that have people from many races , pastors , ministers , priests etc . So don't try sidestep the actual facts of slavery from social Darwinism and it being used as an economic benefit to whites to fit your narrative of what the bible is

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