Was Jesus' Sacrifice Meaningful?

[JoeMama]

Jesus spent some unpleasant hours on the cross, and a couple of days in a tomb, but he is still alive today, 2,000 years later, sitting forevermore in heavenly bliss at the right hand of God. If the price for living forever is being nailed to a cross and being shut up for a short while in a tomb, who wouldn't take that bargain? So why do people think Jesus made such a great sacrifice?

[POI]

Is the juice worth the squeeze? Meaning, if you already knew that to achieve eternal bliss and worshipped by many, all you had to do was be tortured for a few hours, wouldn't that be a fair trade-off? Yes or no?

I think that is a straw-man argument that has nothing to do what the Bible teaches.

Does the Bible teach that Jesus sacrificed himself, or not? If he did, then we can assess if it was indeed an actual sacrifice. In which case, my line of questioning stands. So either admit that Jesus did not really engage in any true sacrifice, or, answer my question.

[TRANSPONDER]

Is the juice worth the squeeze? Meaning, if you already knew that to achieve eternal bliss and worshipped by many, all you had to do was be tortured for a few hours, wouldn't that be a fair trade-off? Yes or no?

I think that is a straw-man argument that has nothing to do what the Bible teaches.

If yousay it is a strawman (argument)you have to say what the actual argument is. Too often 'strawman' as used by Christian apologists means 'I don't like it'. and i think you have to say what it is the Bible teaches that POI's argument has nothing to do with.

Which I guess is 'it was a sacrifice of blood or death that paid for mankind's sins'. But only it seems if one becomes a Christian.

From what I make of the story, I wouldn't say the death was "imposed upon him," but rather "acknowledged by him." It was god's plan that Jesus would die, and Jesus agreed with the plan.

Okay. And so? Do you feel agreeing to a plan that you give up something for the good of others doesn't qualify as a sacrifice?

It depends on how much you give up. driving your neighbour's kids to school while they get their car fixed is a sacrifice of a sort but does not exempt your state from taxes for a year. And the question is, does the crucifixion really count as a sacrifice enough to do what the Doctrine claims? Hundreds of people were crucified at various times and they didn't get to live eternity except in Hell because they were Jews or pagans. why wouldn't one of those do? And if what it really was, was a way of Jesus being given life in heaven it wasn't giving up that much. Not compared to what some have had to go through. What actually was it about the crucifixion that releases mankind from sin? And that apparently only if one becomes a Christian. It all sounds a bit of a con - game to me.

[Miles]

As I understand the fable, it wasn't because Jesus' death was part of the plan, but because his dying was the plan. It was god's intention that Jesus die,*/ ** something that, being part of the godhead, Jesus no doubt understood. Jesus' death was not a sacrifice but the intended and required end to his life. Therefore, Jesus' death was no sacrifice at all, but simply his planed demise, which I fail to see as a non-sequitur.

*"Jesus died so that humans could have their sins forgiven and receive endless life. (Romans 6:​23; Ephesians 1:7)."
source

** Then there's this bit of Baptist silliness:

10 Reasons Jesus Came to Die

1. To destroy hostility between races.
2. To give marriage its deepest meaning.
3. To absorb the wrath of God.
4. So that we would escape the curse of the law.
5. To reconcile us to God.
6. To show God’s love for sinners.
7. To show Jesus’s own love for us.
8. To take away our condemnation.
9. To bring us to God.
10. To give eternal life to all who believe on him.
source

.

You were the one who described his death as part of the plan.

Where?

.

[TRANSPONDER]

sorry, thishas all got missposted.

I was going to say you didn't seem to say so.That was others' ideas.Your nearest was #9

[1213]

Is the juice worth the squeeze? Meaning, if you already knew that to achieve eternal bliss and worshipped by many, all you had to do was be tortured for a few hours, wouldn't that be a fair trade-off? Yes or no?

I think that is a straw-man argument that has nothing to do what the Bible teaches.

Does the Bible teach that Jesus sacrificed himself, or not? If he did, then we can assess if it was indeed an actual sacrifice. In which case, my line of questioning stands. So either admit that Jesus did not really engage in any true sacrifice, or, answer my question.

What do you mean with true sacrifice? And especially, you claim "to achieve eternal bliss and worshipped by many, all you had to do was be tortured for a few hours". Can you show that from the Bible? If not, why should I not ignore the whole thing?

[POI]

Is the juice worth the squeeze? Meaning, if you already knew that to achieve eternal bliss and worshipped by many, all you had to do was be tortured for a few hours, wouldn't that be a fair trade-off? Yes or no?

I think that is a straw-man argument that has nothing to do what the Bible teaches.

Does the Bible teach that Jesus sacrificed himself, or not? If he did, then we can assess if it was indeed an actual sacrifice. In which case, my line of questioning stands. So either admit that Jesus did not really engage in any true sacrifice, or, answer my question.

What do you mean with true sacrifice? And especially, you claim "to achieve eternal bliss and worshipped by many, all you had to do was be tortured for a few hours". Can you show that from the Bible? If not, why should I not ignore the whole thing?

Is this a serious question, or just another stall tactic?

Hebrews 9:12-14, Hebrews 9:26, Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 10:10-12, Romans 5:10, 1 Corinthians 5:7, 1 Corinthians 11:23-24, 2 Corinthians 5:21, etc etc etc....

Now, allow me to rephrase for better clarity....

What do I mean by true sacrifice? I mean, did Jesus really sacrifice much at all? I'd say no. Why? If Jesus lives for an eternity, then what did he 'sacrifice'? All he did was subject himself, or have 'God' subject him to, some brief inconvenience. At the end of the day. the plan, all along, was for him to rise from a grave. And now he sets in heaven forever, being worshipped.

So what in the heck IS the actual 'sacrifice' in the first place?

[bjs1]

As I understand the fable, it wasn't because Jesus' death was part of the plan, but because his dying was the plan. It was god's intention that Jesus die,*/ ** something that, being part of the godhead, Jesus no doubt understood. Jesus' death was not a sacrifice but the intended and required end to his life. Therefore, Jesus' death was no sacrifice at all, but simply his planed demise, which I fail to see as a non-sequitur.

*"Jesus died so that humans could have their sins forgiven and receive endless life. (Romans 6:​23; Ephesians 1:7)."
source

** Then there's this bit of Baptist silliness:

10 Reasons Jesus Came to Die

1. To destroy hostility between races.
2. To give marriage its deepest meaning.
3. To absorb the wrath of God.
4. So that we would escape the curse of the law.
5. To reconcile us to God.
6. To show God’s love for sinners.
7. To show Jesus’s own love for us.
8. To take away our condemnation.
9. To bring us to God.
10. To give eternal life to all who believe on him.
source

.

You were the one who described his death as part of the plan.

Where?

.

Sorry. This part of the thread started as a response to brunumb, who describe Jesus sacrifice as part of the plan. The rest of my post remains valid.

[1213]

Is the juice worth the squeeze? Meaning, if you already knew that to achieve eternal bliss and worshipped by many, all you had to do was be tortured for a few hours, wouldn't that be a fair trade-off? Yes or no?

I think that is a straw-man argument that has nothing to do what the Bible teaches.

Does the Bible teach that Jesus sacrificed himself, or not? If he did, then we can assess if it was indeed an actual sacrifice. In which case, my line of questioning stands. So either admit that Jesus did not really engage in any true sacrifice, or, answer my question.

What do you mean with true sacrifice? And especially, you claim "to achieve eternal bliss and worshipped by many, all you had to do was be tortured for a few hours". Can you show that from the Bible? If not, why should I not ignore the whole thing?

Is this a serious question, or just another stall tactic?

Hebrews 9:12-14, Hebrews 9:26, Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 10:10-12, Romans 5:10, 1 Corinthians 5:7, 1 Corinthians 11:23-24, 2 Corinthians 5:21, etc etc etc....

I took all of those from the Bible and look, none of them say: "to achieve eternal bliss and worshipped by many, all you had to do was be tortured for a few hours". Now I am bewildered, your previous claim seems to be just your own doing.

nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify to the cleanness of the flesh: how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 9:12-14

or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:26

Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, “Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire, But a body did you prepare for me;
Hebrews 10:5

by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Every priest indeed stands day by day ministering and often offering the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins, but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Hebrews 10:10-12

For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we will be saved by his life.
Romans 5:10

Purge out the old yeast, that you may be a new lump, even as you are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, has been sacrificed in our place.
1 Corinthians 5:7

For I received from the Lord that which also I delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night in which he was betrayed took bread. When he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “Take, eat. This is my body, which is broken for you. Do this in memory of me.”
1 Corinthians 11:23-24

For him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21

I understand those so that Jesus sacrificed his life by living the way he did, to declare the message God had commanded him to speak. The words of Jesus can cause change in person so that he becomes righteous. And if person is righteous, he can get the eternal life. And so, his "sacrifice" was better than any other sacrifice.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Jesus can be seen as a sacrifice, but I think it would be important to understand this:

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

Now, allow me to rephrase for better clarity....

What do I mean by true sacrifice? I mean, did Jesus really sacrifice much at all? I'd say no. Why? If Jesus lives for an eternity, then what did he 'sacrifice'? All he did was subject himself, or have 'God' subject him to, some brief inconvenience. At the end of the day. the plan, all along, was for him to rise from a grave. And now he sets in heaven forever, being worshipped.

So what in the heck IS the actual 'sacrifice' in the first place?

I think he sacrificed his life similarly as it can be said soldier sacrifices his life while defending his country. Jesus used his life on earth for our benefit, didn't live for himself, that is how i think he sacrificed his life.

[TRANSPONDER]

Is the juice worth the squeeze? Meaning, if you already knew that to achieve eternal bliss and worshipped by many, all you had to do was be tortured for a few hours, wouldn't that be a fair trade-off? Yes or no?

I think that is a straw-man argument that has nothing to do what the Bible teaches.

Does the Bible teach that Jesus sacrificed himself, or not? If he did, then we can assess if it was indeed an actual sacrifice. In which case, my line of questioning stands. So either admit that Jesus did not really engage in any true sacrifice, or, answer my question.

What do you mean with true sacrifice? And especially, you claim "to achieve eternal bliss and worshipped by many, all you had to do was be tortured for a few hours". Can you show that from the Bible? If not, why should I not ignore the whole thing?

Is this a serious question, or just another stall tactic?

Hebrews 9:12-14, Hebrews 9:26, Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 10:10-12, Romans 5:10, 1 Corinthians 5:7, 1 Corinthians 11:23-24, 2 Corinthians 5:21, etc etc etc....

I took all of those from the Bible and look, none of them say: "to achieve eternal bliss and worshipped by many, all you had to do was be tortured for a few hours". Now I am bewildered, your previous claim seems to be just your own doing.

nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify to the cleanness of the flesh: how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 9:12-14

or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:26

Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, “Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire, But a body did you prepare for me;
Hebrews 10:5

by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Every priest indeed stands day by day ministering and often offering the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins, but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Hebrews 10:10-12

For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we will be saved by his life.
Romans 5:10

Purge out the old yeast, that you may be a new lump, even as you are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, has been sacrificed in our place.
1 Corinthians 5:7

For I received from the Lord that which also I delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night in which he was betrayed took bread. When he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “Take, eat. This is my body, which is broken for you. Do this in memory of me.”
1 Corinthians 11:23-24

For him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21

I understand those so that Jesus sacrificed his life by living the way he did, to declare the message God had commanded him to speak. The words of Jesus can cause change in person so that he becomes righteous. And if person is righteous, he can get the eternal life. And so, his "sacrifice" was better than any other sacrifice.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Jesus can be seen as a sacrifice, but I think it would be important to understand this:

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

Now, allow me to rephrase for better clarity....

What do I mean by true sacrifice? I mean, did Jesus really sacrifice much at all? I'd say no. Why? If Jesus lives for an eternity, then what did he 'sacrifice'? All he did was subject himself, or have 'God' subject him to, some brief inconvenience. At the end of the day. the plan, all along, was for him to rise from a grave. And now he sets in heaven forever, being worshipped.

So what in the heck IS the actual 'sacrifice' in the first place?

I think he sacrificed his life similarly as it can be said soldier sacrifices his life while defending his country. Jesus used his life on earth for our benefit, didn't live for himself, that is how i think he sacrificed his life.

That makes no sense. Not to explain how that crucifixion did anything. The teaching is one thing.I could claim I'm sacrificing my life debating (discussing) this matter. I don't see it as a sacrifice but what i do for free because it's important and I rather enjoy it .

The crucifixion in itself could be compared to a soldier's service, but that does not win a battle, even if the soldier had won battles in the past. The act of crucifixion itself has to accomplish something more than teachings given in the past or going through a tough experience. Even if Jesus did have the ability to forgive sins, he also had the ability to heal, but just dying on the cross wouldn't forgive sins anymore than it healed everybody at that time. It has to be some miraculous action that makes a hole in the law of sin - death for anyone to get through and that (or so Paul tells us - and, if you reject Paul, you reject Gentile Christianity) was because Jesus was sacrificed just like a passover lamb was. You can hardly ignore the traditional symbolism that backs up that doctrine. But there's the problem. It was no sacrifice if Jesus didn't actually die.

The conclusion being that the whole idea of a crucifixion for the reason given on the notice (subversive Messianism) being claimed as serving some other purpose (whether Paul's idea or someone elses') is not convincing. There is no reason why Jesus dying on the cross, supposing it really happened, was anything more than a Roman execution for a failed attempt at subversion. It accomplished nothing and the magical claims made for it do not make sense. That before we even get to other problems like the Blasphemy charge not making sense, the efforts to shift the blame to the Jews not being convincing, e.g no Passover release custom is knownf, and many missmatches in the accounts, that whatever you and the other believers might swallow, there is absolutely no good reason for anyone able to ask questions to believe the basic Christian claims. And there you go.

[POI]

I took all of those from the Bible and look, none of them say: "to achieve eternal bliss and worshipped by many, all you had to do was be tortured for a few hours".

Wait a minute.... You've read the Bible, right? I'm assuming the answer is yes. You mean to tell me you thought my words were merely cut/paste verses from the Bible? Really? Of course not. So let's not play apologist's games here....

How about this, which is basically also exactly what I stated in red.....

(According to the story...) ---> Is Jesus in Heaven forever? Yes. Is Heaven a blissful place? Yes. Is Jesus worshipped by millions or more. Yes. Was Jesus' punishment very brief, as it is related to eternity? Yes. A matter of fact, if Jesus-God is eternal, then a few hours on a cross, followed by a couple days of hanging around, before ascending to Heaven, hardly is a blip on the radar.

Now I am bewildered

Hopefully and optimistically, my explanation above provides more clarity.

I think he sacrificed his life similarly as it can be said soldier sacrifices his life while defending his country.

Well, this would be a false analogy. The soldier has absolutely no idea of his fate, after (s)he dies. Provided He stuck with the pre-determined plan, Jesus was 100% certain that he would ascend to Heaven for all eternity. Apples and oranges here. So I'll ask you again.....

If you knew that being inconvenienced for a couple of days would land you into a place of eternal bliss, where many will also worship you for an eternity, wouldn't that be a pretty good trade-off? Meaning, not too much 'sacrifice', if you ask me. Right?

Jesus used his life on earth for our benefit, didn't live for himself, that is how i think he sacrificed his life.

Jesus knew full-well, the plan that His dad made for Him all along. He was ordered to do so.

Or, if you instead adopt for the notion that Jesus and God are one-in-the-same, God cloned Himself and hatched the same plan.

Either way, no "sacrifice" really. Especially when compared to a soldier using their body as a human shield to cover a grenade blast.