Lying for the Lord

[JoeMama]

Do true believers accept the biblical teaching to "be ever ready to give a reason for your faith," (1 Peter 3:15), even if it means accepting and promoting as the truth something they intellectually know is probably false, as long as it helps maintain faith and the glory of God?

Would God approve of you lying to save a person from being cast into the fiery pits of eternal damnation?

[boatsnguitars]

If by "making" you mean: is God giving people cancer? Is God stopping food from reaching those that need it? Is God robbing, raping, stealing from the poor? Is God causing so called "natural disasters"? etc, no God is not doing any of those things.

Again, the wilfull ignorance. Natural disasters are not man-made - they are "Acts of God". Come on, you are so transparent. You are so practiced to avoid the actual topic, like a politician.

Tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, pestilance, disease, cancer, birth defects, hurricanes, tornados, all those things have nothing to do with what people do. Yet, you say he can stop all of it - but doesn't. You claim - on Faith - that he will at some undetermined point in the future, but right now, and for the last 40,000 years he has watched.

And, to you all this suffering is Good. It's "Wise and Loving".

I think you do fetishize suffering. (Fetishize: have an excessive and irrational commitment to (something). "an author who fetishizes privacy") I think all Christians do. I think they secretly love the suffering Jesus went through, they love the rush. They love the importance of it, they love to weild it as a badge of honor when they say, "Jesus suffered like no one on Earth for YOU!" They love how depraved it all was and how Jesus took it like a man; was willing to suffer for them. They love the implications of suffering from being mocked. They love the idea that they, too, have to acceopt 'tough love' from God. They love the persecution of being a Christian, they love to wave Jesus's persecution around like a reward. They love that suffering is part of the world, since it forces people to their knees - to call out for any help, even supernatural help. They love the idea that sin causes so much suffering because it validates their belief in the origins of Sin, according to Christianity. They love that suffering and Evil "prove" God.

They love it so much, the literal symbol of their Faith is Jesus on the Cross - suffering.

Note: You are welcome to comment on my new thread: Christianity and Redemptive Suffering. Read through it - I think you'll realize that you (as a Christian) do, in fact, fetishize suffering.

[JehovahsWitness]

Natural disasters are not man-made - they are "Acts of God".

DOES GOD CAUSE EARTHQUAKES FLOODS AND OTHER SO CALLED ACTS OF GOD?

No. Some of these things are natural phenomena that happen as a result of the movement of the tectonic plates on the earth's surface. Others are the results of solar flares and other uncontrollable phenonama. That said, other so called natural disasters are actually far from natural , indeed there is a growing scientific consensus that some of the extreme weather we are experiencing is the result of an increasingly degraded ecosystem damaged by human mismanagement of the planet.

In any case, while God in bible times did intervene using his power over natural elements to destroy the wicked the bible does not teach that is the case today.


JW


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Does God cause earthquakes and floods today?
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NATURAL DISASTERS , HUMAN SUFFERING and .... THE ISSUE OF UNIVERSAL SOVEREIGNTY

[JehovahsWitness]

ARE VICTIMS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE TSUNAMIS, EARTHQUQKES, FLOODS OR DISEASE THEY SUFFER?

No. People that suffer from sickness , pandemics, or so called "natural disasters" are not responsible for such hardships, nor should it be held God is punishing them for their sins. Such "blaming the victim" is not a biblical view, as many of these hardships fall on people regardless of their taking reasonable precautions.

That said, human governments and leaders often make decisions that either add to the probability of more suffering from such phenonema by their subjects or fail to take adequate measures to minimalise their negative effects. Even when leaders have the best of intentions and efficiently implement procedures, they are sometimes limited in what they can do and no human or human organisation, no matter how well intentioned has thus far demonstrated they gave the power to entirely eliminate such things.


God's Kingdom, an incoming government will happily do what no human can do, namely free the planet of all suffering and control the elements to ensure nobody suffers as a result of an earthquake, flood or drought.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

NATURAL DISASTERS , HUMAN SUFFERING and .... THE ISSUE OF UNIVERSAL SOVEREIGNTY

[JehovahsWitness]

DO CHRISTIAN LOVE THAT JESUS SUFFERED?

People that feel enjoyable pleasure from someone else's pain are usually described as psychopaths. Normal people are usually distressed to see even animals suffer how much more someone they love. I have not come across anyone that experiences enjoyable pleasure at the thought of the agonising torture Jesus is reported to have went through. According to the bible narrative Jesus was slapped, spat on, punched, scourge, nailed to a stake and eventually died from either heart failure, asphyxiation, blood loss or a combination of all three. I know of no Christian that derives any sensual pleasure from contemplating the above.


WHY THEN DO CHRISTIANS SO VALUE JESUS?

That Christian appreciate what Jesus did is not to be confused with enjoying the thought of the torture he went through. Christians believe that Jesus suffered so that humanity can be freed from sickness, disease, old age and death. We believe his death to be a ransom for mankind given at great personal sacrifice.

To illustrate : A man sees someone has been swept out to sea and is in distress. He swims out and manages to drag the victim to safety saving his life. Sadly weaken by the effort the man himself succumbs to the waves and dies.

Will the person he saved get thrilling pleasure from thinking of the man that saved him drowning ? Or rather would he be forever grateful and not wish the selfless act be forgotten? Christians believe Jesus performed an unselfish act of love by willingly coming to earth to suffer and die for mankind, they are proud Jesus faced death with such dignity but derive no pleasure from thinking of his suffering but are deeply grateful that he did.

[JehovahsWitness]

...They [Christians] love the persecution of being a Christian, they love to wave Jesus's persecution around like a reward.

I have never met a Christian that loves being persecuted. Persecution usually involves some kind of emotional or physical pain, and most normal people do not get pleasure from pain. On the contrary, the natural reaction to pain is to recoil from it and seek relief.

JW



FURTHER READING : The persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses
https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=Persecution


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RELIGION, CHRISTIANITY and ...RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #12]

Well, there are doubts and questions right away. It is an elephant drive out of the the room to admit that natural disasters are not caused by God, but the problem starts when it is asked why they are not stopped by God. It was done in the past, why not now? The obvious answer is that claims we can't check can be maintained.

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #13]

It is, of course,equally easy to make uncheckable promises for the future.Is there any reason to believe a claim that God will roll up and make everything perfect when he seems unable or unwilling to do a darn thing about it now? I have talked about excuses before. The way the world looks is that there in no god there. Not one that does anything other than inspire contradictory revelations, that is. Excuses are pointless other than to enable the faithful to deny tough problems and maintain Faith.But that is the problem.It is not going to persuade anyone with doubts. They will simply say 'He has no argument other than far - fetched hypotheses (like the trip to Galilee that doesn't fit in Luke) or just 'We must have Faith'. That may work for the believer, but not the doubter.

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #14]

There's why the idea of Hell is untenable.Those who reject it don't have the problem to explain it, but then, why bother with religion at all? I already dealt with the unvalidated promises of a perfect life to come. There is no more reason to believe that than the one about eating dates and drinking shiraz under a palm tree for eternity. Especially when their Holy Books are more full of holes than Bakhmut railway station. Especially the claim that Jesus was sent to eliminate sin. But only if we grovel to the religion - if we can identify the right one.

Look, I reckon that Jesus really lived and was crucified - for the usual reason people git crucified. The idea that it was a sacrifice for sin has plenty of the aforesaid orifices in, so what should we be grateful for, at least in the sense of owing something to a religion. As to victimization, I have seen enough examples of that. Protests about an Atheist television channel or not being able to have Creationist trash preached in the science class.

[1213]

Do true believers accept the biblical teaching to "be ever ready to give a reason for your faith," (1 Peter 3:15), even if it means accepting and promoting as the truth something they intellectually know is probably false, as long as it helps maintain faith and the glory of God?

Would God approve of you lying to save a person from being cast into the fiery pits of eternal damnation?

By what the Bible tells, liars go to hell:

But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Rev. 21:8

I believe it is possible to forgive, but because of that scripture, I don't think people should lie ever. And it is not necessary in any case.

[TRANSPONDER]

Do true believers accept the biblical teaching to "be ever ready to give a reason for your faith," (1 Peter 3:15), even if it means accepting and promoting as the truth something they intellectually know is probably false, as long as it helps maintain faith and the glory of God?

Would God approve of you lying to save a person from being cast into the fiery pits of eternal damnation?

By what the Bible tells, liars go to hell:

But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Rev. 21:8

I believe it is possible to forgive, but because of that scripture, I don't think people should lie ever. And it is not necessary in any case.

That is one reason, isn't it, to conclude that Hell is not credible. 'Lying for Jesus'is a meme but along with 'Hey, what do some untruths matter if some souls are saved' was a thing. Thing is, it is more interpretation and denial than misrepresentation or intentionally lying. Denying slavery in the Bible is more excuses than lying. Ignoring that I Cor does not match the resurrections is denial, rather than lying. Sneering at Lucy because the bones could all fit in a shoe box is misrepresentation, not lying. Though claiming the spine went in back of the skull to make Lucy an ape is a lie. And there's many out and out lies rather than biased representations, and maybe both sides do that.

But to get back to Hell, and lying how does one split off the damned liar from the saved forgiven? One lie? One told a lie "'no you look fine!" And goes to heaven The other "No you look terrible in it" and upset her went to heaven because he told the truth or Hell because he caused hurt. But then, didn't Jesus cause hurt or offence, but in the cause of necessary correction?

How can anyone judge like that? Well Believers must suppose that JesusGod can but it seems unbelievable to judge 'lying' like that, especially if it is done to 'Prove' what's true on faith anyway.

[Purple Knight]

If you mean should a Christian be ready to suffer for their beliefs , then yes, lying for Christ is not a biblically supported teaching, but suffering for Christ IS.

This scans because some of the earliest Christians were honest about what they believed even when it was a crime in Rome.

If lying for your faith was acceptable they'd probably all have done so.

You run into something that could be considered a minor problem when the Bible tells you to follow the law, but not if there's a rational priority system for the different directives.

[JoeMama]

Do true believers accept the biblical teaching to "be ever ready to give a reason for your faith," (1 Peter 3:15), even if it means accepting and promoting as the truth something they intellectually know is probably false, as long as it helps maintain faith and the glory of God?

JW says,
I do not agree with your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:15; there nis absolutely no mention therein of lying or any indication that defending why one believes in the truth involves lying.


JoeMama responds,

All you said above is true, so let me put it to you another (better) way:

Would you lie to a person if you thought it would increase her chances for salvation?

For example, would you tell a dying loved one she could increase their chances of being granted eternal life by accepting Jesus as Lord and her savior, even though you know that scripture teaches that one's fate is determine prior to her birth, and that nothing she can do will affect their fate?

In the short time she might have left, she would at least, with your help (your lie), have hope where maybe little or none existed before.


Or, would you tell her there's nothing she can do? Her fate was long ago determined. Maybe she's going to heaven, maybe not. Time will tell.