Christianity and Redemptive Suffering

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Christianity and Redemptive Suffering

Post #1

Post by boatsnguitars »

Most Christians don't realize it, but suffering is a major part of their religion. They fetishize it (many Christians festishize it in both meanings of the word. Numerous accounts of priests physically and sexaully abusing young children are clear indications of how they view suffering as an invaluable part of their world view).

But I want to talk about the more academic view of suffering in Christianity: Redemptive Suffering. The "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" variety.

The idea of redemptive suffering is a concept that is deeply rooted in Christian theology. This concept suggests that suffering can have spiritual significance and can lead to greater understanding or connection with God. The idea is that through the experience of suffering, individuals can become closer to God and gain a deeper understanding of the nature of God's love and grace. Mother Theresa was the poster child for this, and her legacy of causing maximal suffering is legendary. She purposely denied money to build new hospitals, hire doctors and nurses and withheld life-saving medicine because she believed suffering brought people closer to God is their final, desperate hours. Her body count is absurdly high, yet Christians praise her for it.

Of course, it starts with Jesus showing the way:
One of the key biblical texts that supports the idea of redemptive suffering is the account of the Passion of Jesus Christ. According to the Gospels, Jesus suffered greatly on the cross, enduring physical pain and emotional distress in order to atone for the sins of humanity. In the Gospel of Matthew, for example, Jesus tells his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Matthew 16:24). This passage suggests that the experience of suffering can be a means of following Jesus and growing closer to him.

Another biblical passage that supports the idea of redemptive suffering is found in the letter of James, where the author writes, "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing" (James 1:2-4). This passage suggests that trials and hardships can be a means of testing and strengthening one's faith, ultimately leading to greater spiritual maturity.

In Catholic theology, the idea of redemptive suffering is closely tied to the concept of purgatory, which is a place or state of being where individuals who have died in a state of grace undergo purification before entering heaven. According to Catholic teaching, the sufferings experienced in purgatory are redemptive and can lead to the forgiveness of sins and the attainment of eternal life.

The concept of redemptive suffering has also been explored by a number of Christian theologians and philosophers throughout history. For example, the 20th-century Catholic theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar wrote extensively about the idea of redemptive suffering, arguing that "suffering is an essential element of the Christian life" and that "it is only through suffering that we can enter into the fullness of the life that Christ offers us" (Theo-Drama: Theological Dramatic Theory, Vol. 5, Ignatius Press, 1998, p. 78).

Overall, the concept of redemptive suffering is a key theme in Christian theology, and is based on a number of biblical passages and theological concepts. While the idea of suffering may seem difficult or unpleasant to any rational person, Christians believe that it can ultimately lead to greater spiritual growth and understanding, as well as the attainment of eternal life. Christians will excuse all the suffering, all the evil because they believe it is for a greater Good.

This is one of the reasons Christianity is so poor at understanding moral values, especially when moral values are tied to harm. Most moral philosophers understand moral values in terms of harm, but Christians can't understand this since they feel harm is an integral part of the human experience. They applaud Peter for being crucified upside-down - increasing his suffering - because he thought being killed upright was an affront to Jesus. Imagine the depravity of thought that you have to debase yourself even more in your death! Yet, Christians love this story!

Christians love to say, "All the apostles suffered for the Faith! They all went willingly to their deaths, rather than recant" It's not "as if" they are saying it's better to suffer and die than live, they are ACTUALLY saying it.

As theologian James Cone writes, "The cross is the most empowering symbol of the Christian faith because it symbolizes the redemptive suffering of Jesus and the hope that such suffering gives to the oppressed" (The Cross and the Lynching Tree, Orbis Books, 2011, p. 27).

See that: "empowering". They think it's empowering. Contrast that to what, e.g., Humanists think empowers people: education, political involvement, self-confidence, personal relationships, etc.

1. What is redemptive suffering, and how does it relate to Christian theology?
2. What is the biblical basis for the concept of redemptive suffering?
3. How does redemptive suffering differ from other ideas about the role of suffering in spiritual growth?
4. In what ways can the idea of redemptive suffering be empowering for individuals who are experiencing hardship or pain?
5. What criticisms have been raised against the concept of redemptive suffering, and how have Christian theologians responded to these critiques?

(BTW, some have asked why my posts seem like school projects. I use them for my Bible study at my local Church. I edit out some of the things.).
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Christianity and Redemptive Suffering

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Post by 1213 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 2:17 am ...but if it does its worth pointing out that biblically salvation only comes through the blood of CHRIST, not from any personal suffering on our part.
I would like to know, to what scripture that is based on?

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Re: Christianity and Redemptive Suffering

Post #22

Post by JehovahsWitness »

1213 wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:26 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 2:17 am ...but if it does its worth pointing out that biblically salvation only comes through the blood of CHRIST, not from any personal suffering on our part.
I would like to know, to what scripture that is based on?
1 PETER 1 : 18 19

For you know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that you were set free+ from your futile way of life handed down to you by your forefathers. But it was with precious blood,+ like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb,+ that of Christ
ISAIAH 53:12

Because he poured out his life even to death And was counted among the transgressors; He carried the sin of many people ...
MATTHEW 26: 27, 28

And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of you, for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.
EPHESIANS 1:7

By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one,yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses,+ according to the riches of his undeserved kindness
HEBREWS 9:22

Yes, according to the Law nearly all things are cleansed with blood, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place
JOHN 1 : 29

Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin+ of the world!
1 Corinthians 15:3

For among the first things I handed on to you was what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures
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Re: Christianity and Redemptive Suffering

Post #23

Post by Purple Knight »

This comes from an anime that's more than a little silly (It's called The Fruit of Evolution of all things, lol) but I'll post it anyway.
At the end of the 2nd season, Seichi tells the villain he's fighting that it was not in spite of being bullied as a kid, but because of it, that he learned kindness. He learned how it felt to be abused, he learned that felt bad, and he learned he shouldn't do it to others. I found it a little bit Christian.

There's an example of Christianity being portrayed this way in The Tudors. When King Henry is starting to throw Queen Katherine away for Anne Boleyn, Queen Katherine says, "If it is between happiness and sadness, I would choose sadness every time, for that brings me closer to God."

This is exactly one half of valid. The other half is that you also don't know kindness or goodness without finding ways not to suffer, because if you don't learn that it's good not to suffer, you also won't learn kindness.

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Re: Christianity and Redemptive Suffering

Post #24

Post by 1213 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:59 am
1213 wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:26 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 2:17 am ...but if it does its worth pointing out that biblically salvation only comes through the blood of CHRIST, not from any personal suffering on our part.
I would like to know, to what scripture that is based on?
1 PETER 1 : 18 19

For you know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that you were set free+ from your futile way of life handed down to you by your forefathers. But it was with precious blood,+ like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb,+ that of Christ
ISAIAH 53:12

Because he poured out his life even to death And was counted among the transgressors; He carried the sin of many people ...
MATTHEW 26: 27, 28

And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of you, for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.
EPHESIANS 1:7

By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one,yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses,+ according to the riches of his undeserved kindness
HEBREWS 9:22

Yes, according to the Law nearly all things are cleansed with blood, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place
JOHN 1 : 29

Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin+ of the world!
1 Corinthians 15:3

For among the first things I handed on to you was what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures
Thanks. By what the Bible tells, the blood can be the wine Jesus poured?

I think Jesus is symbolically the lamb, because the reason for why he died is basically our sins. However, I think it is wrong to think that he was sacrifice in same sense as the animal sacrifices before him.

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Re: Christianity and Redemptive Suffering

Post #25

Post by JehovahsWitness »

1213 wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:42 am

Thanks. By what the Bible tells, the blood can be the wine Jesus poured?
I'm sorry 1213 but I do not understand the question.

1213 wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:42 am
I think Jesus is symbolically the lamb, because the reason for why he died is basically our sins.
Yes that is correct, Jesus is not literally a lamb , he is spoken of as such only in a symbolic way. Jesus was a human. Yes, scriptues do speak kf Jesus as dying for our sins.

1213 wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:42 am However, I think it is wrong to think that he was sacrifice in same sense as the animal sacrifices before him.
Correct. Jesus sacrifice is of far higher value than an animal. His life was of such high value it could atone permanently for the sins of mankind. As Paul explained, an animal sacrifice could not do that (which is why the Israelites had to keep repeating them year after year.


Jesus death : atoned for sin PERMANENTLY
Animal death: atoned for sin TEMPORARILY

So you are correct, Jesus sacrifice was not in the in same sense as animal sacrifices.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Christianity and Redemptive Suffering

Post #26

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:42 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:59 am
1213 wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:26 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 2:17 am ...but if it does its worth pointing out that biblically salvation only comes through the blood of CHRIST, not from any personal suffering on our part.
I would like to know, to what scripture that is based on?
1 PETER 1 : 18 19

For you know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that you were set free+ from your futile way of life handed down to you by your forefathers. But it was with precious blood,+ like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb,+ that of Christ
ISAIAH 53:12

Because he poured out his life even to death And was counted among the transgressors; He carried the sin of many people ...
MATTHEW 26: 27, 28

And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of you, for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.
EPHESIANS 1:7

By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one,yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses,+ according to the riches of his undeserved kindness
HEBREWS 9:22

Yes, according to the Law nearly all things are cleansed with blood, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place
JOHN 1 : 29

Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin+ of the world!
1 Corinthians 15:3

For among the first things I handed on to you was what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures
Thanks. By what the Bible tells, the blood can be the wine Jesus poured?

I think Jesus is symbolically the lamb, because the reason for why he died is basically our sins. However, I think it is wrong to think that he was sacrifice in same sense as the animal sacrifices before him.
Symbolic? Then he could have sent Jesus out to get him a pizza for forgiveness of sins. There has to be some mechanism for God being able to make a loophole in the Law he imposed in the first place. It's either magic blood or the suffering or the fact it released the spirit. I can get the idea - that God in spirit accepted some pretty nasty pain through the man it inhabited. But why that was needed to put a turnstile in Death if you had the Christian entry -ticket makes no sense to me.It still sounds like a con - game to talk people into Christianity.

I saw a couple of vids last night of an apologist trying to deal with this. Essentially he adapted the Ray Comfort gambit - proving we all deserve punishment and thew 'Judge' is offering to pay our fine. That's essentially the game on offer. The response of course is - is that one actually the judge? What if the actual Judge is in another courthouse supoenaing you and you answered the wrong summons? Then the case and the Judge offering to let you off is invalid and all I can see is that you bought a ticket - and you don't even know it's the right one. That's even before your defence argues that you haven't actually committed any crime.

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Re: Christianity and Redemptive Suffering

Post #27

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:20 am ...
Symbolic? Then he could have sent Jesus out to get him a pizza for forgiveness of sins. ...
Jesus had the right to forgive sins freely. That is one reason why he was killed.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

And he gave the same right for his disciples:

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

Nothing is really demanded on that. But, because of it, Jesus was killed and so he became like sacrifice for our sins.

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Re: Christianity and Redemptive Suffering

Post #28

Post by 1213 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:00 am
1213 wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:42 am

Thanks. By what the Bible tells, the blood can be the wine Jesus poured?
I'm sorry 1213 but I do not understand the question.
I was speaking of this:
1 PETER 1 : 18 19
For you know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that you were set free+ from your futile way of life handed down to you by your forefathers. But it was with precious blood,+ like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb,+ that of Christ

The precious blood, could it be the wine that was called blood in the last supper?

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Re: Christianity and Redemptive Suffering

Post #29

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:34 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:20 am ...
Symbolic? Then he could have sent Jesus out to get him a pizza for forgiveness of sins. ...
Jesus had the right to forgive sins freely. That is one reason why he was killed.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

And he gave the same right for his disciples:

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

Nothing is really demanded on that. But, because of it, Jesus was killed and so he became like sacrifice for our sins.
Well no. Sure, according to the Bible Jesus had authority to forgive sins (e.g God did it for him and remember he couldn't do it in Nazareth much because of lack of faith) but that wasn't the reason Jesus was killed. It was because that act of suffering paid for Mankind's sin all in one go. That's what Paul says and the Believer would tell us that is what the 12 taught him (though I think it was his own idea) and is even predicted in Isaiah. The hostility of the teachers of the Law is because he undermined their teaching and credibility, not because he forgave sins. The Temple (where sacrifice was the way to pay for sins) might take issue with that, but not the Rabbis in the Synagogues.

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Re: Christianity and Redemptive Suffering

Post #30

Post by JehovahsWitness »

1213 wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:36 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:00 am
1213 wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:42 am

Thanks. By what the Bible tells, the blood can be the wine Jesus poured?
I'm sorry 1213 but I do not understand the question.
I was speaking of this:
1 PETER 1 : 18 19
For you know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that you were set free+ from your futile way of life handed down to you by your forefathers. But it was with precious blood,+ like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb,+ that of Christ

The precious blood, could it be the wine that was called blood in the last supper?

Well wine isnt blood is it? Christ didnt have wine in his human body he had blood. So Peter is refering to Christs blood. In the bible blood repressents a persons life. Now yes, Jesus said the wine of his evening meal REPRESENTED his blood (read: life) which he was going to sacrifice for mankind.



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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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