Paradise - Clothing Optional?

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Purple Knight
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Paradise - Clothing Optional?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

Question for Debate: For those of you who believe people will have their physical bodies when their reward comes (and yeah this is canonical; Jesus talks about people being raised from the dead) will those people be required to cover those bodies with clothing? Why or why not? Will nakedness still offend people?

Just as a fun aside, people put pants on this chimp, probably at least in part because they thought it was half-human.

(I am not making fun of religion. I am sort of making fun of the shared human understanding - with a total void of explicit reasoning - about who should have to wear clothes and why. In other words, nobody would come right out and say, "Well, if he's half-human, then he has to wear pants, but if he's not then he doesn't, and he might be, so let's put pants on him just in case," but everyone seems to share that understanding, which I feel like would break into obvious absurdity if spoken, and for some reason that gives me a serious ROFLMAO.)

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Re: Paradise - Clothing Optional?

Post #11

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:39 pm [Replying to Purple Knight in post #8]

Well, I contest that. Of course you may be kidding about so ok then, but otherwise I have heard that some cartoons characters drew criticism because of nakedness.I recall Tweety Pie,as one instance.But I have never heard that anyone complained that cartoon animals had thumbs and were able to handle tools as well as human beans.
I don't think human beans have thumbs that can handle tools. I could be wrong.

; )
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Re: Paradise - Clothing Optional?

Post #12

Post by TRANSPONDER »

tam wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:24 pm Peace to you,
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:39 pm [Replying to Purple Knight in post #8]

Well, I contest that. Of course you may be kidding about so ok then, but otherwise I have heard that some cartoons characters drew criticism because of nakedness.I recall Tweety Pie,as one instance.But I have never heard that anyone complained that cartoon animals had thumbs and were able to handle tools as well as human beans.
I don't think human beans have thumbs that can handle tools. I could be wrong.

; )
You could be right. This Yumung bean needs to use fingers as well.

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Re: Paradise - Clothing Optional?

Post #13

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:45 pm Question for Debate: For those of you who believe people will have their physical bodies when their reward comes (and yeah this is canonical; Jesus talks about people being raised from the dead) will those people be required to cover those bodies with clothing? Why or why not? Will nakedness still offend people?
I don't know if it will be required, but I imagine people will still wear material clothing. I cannot say for sure though. But just because a person is resurrected doesn't mean that they automatically think wearing no material clothing is the thing to do.


In what is written (just as an fyi), clothing can be used as a metaphor for the body that we are 'clothed in.'

The white robe that someone mentioned earlier = the new body.
The long garment of skin that had been given to Adam and Eve = this body that we currently possess.

We will take off the one (the long garment of skin that has sin and death in it) and put on the other (the white robe that has life in it; no sin or death).



Peace again to you!
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Re: Paradise - Clothing Optional?

Post #14

Post by TRANSPONDER »

[Replying to tam in post #13]

It makes no sense to me. The original effect of sin was to feel shame. Wearing of clothing is (biblically) a symbol of imperfect and worldly human thinking. The idea that swanning around wearing clobber is a human delusion means there cannot be clothing in heaven. That is assuming we are going to be as earthly,flawed and sinful there as we are here.

There cannot possibly be clothing in heaven.

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Re: Paradise - Clothing Optional?

Post #15

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:53 pm [Replying to tam in post #13]

It makes no sense to me. The original effect of sin was to feel shame. Wearing of clothing is (biblically) a symbol of imperfect and worldly human thinking. The idea that swanning around wearing clobber is a human delusion means there cannot be clothing in heaven. That is assuming we are going to be as earthly,flawed and sinful there as we are here.

There cannot possibly be clothing in heaven.
The OP is questioning a resurrection on the earth, not in heaven.

Oh... actually no, he did not mention the earth. I just assumed because he said physical body.

My apologies.
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Re: Paradise - Clothing Optional?

Post #16

Post by theophile »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:53 pm [Replying to tam in post #13]

It makes no sense to me. The original effect of sin was to feel shame. Wearing of clothing is (biblically) a symbol of imperfect and worldly human thinking. The idea that swanning around wearing clobber is a human delusion means there cannot be clothing in heaven. That is assuming we are going to be as earthly,flawed and sinful there as we are here.

There cannot possibly be clothing in heaven.
I don't think that's quite right. The idea is to no longer be in sin, hence no more shame.

See for example Jeremiah 13:
"For as the loincloth clings to one’s loins, so I made the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah cling to me, says the Lord, in order that they might be for me a people, a name, a praise, and a glory."

In this case, God too wears "clothing," and it is not a mark of shame but glory...

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Re: Paradise - Clothing Optional?

Post #17

Post by TRANSPONDER »

tam wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:57 pm Peace to you,
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:53 pm [Replying to tam in post #13]

It makes no sense to me. The original effect of sin was to feel shame. Wearing of clothing is (biblically) a symbol of imperfect and worldly human thinking. The idea that swanning around wearing clobber is a human delusion means there cannot be clothing in heaven. That is assuming we are going to be as earthly,flawed and sinful there as we are here.

There cannot possibly be clothing in heaven.
The OP is questioning a resurrection on the earth, not in heaven.

Oh... actually no, he did not mention the earth. I just assumed because he said physical body.

My apologies.
Not a prob. O:) Either way ...and I am aware of the two afterlife - ideas, on the earth or in heaven.... Whatever the process of burning out the impurities for the deserving to be with God, as per Paul, no iniquity can remain and shame is iniquity. Earth or heaven, we all have to be nude. Clothing is a fall from perfect grace and shame, prudishness and all the sexual hang - ups are all down to Eve being too attentive to that snake. All that, trowsers made of leaves, grass skirts and artfully placed twiggs are all to go and it's Frolicksome Sands Resort on earth just as it is in heaven.
theophile wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:58 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:53 pm [Replying to tam in post #13]

It makes no sense to me. The original effect of sin was to feel shame. Wearing of clothing is (biblically) a symbol of imperfect and worldly human thinking. The idea that swanning around wearing clobber is a human delusion means there cannot be clothing in heaven. That is assuming we are going to be as earthly,flawed and sinful there as we are here.

There cannot possibly be clothing in heaven.
I don't think that's quite right. The idea is to no longer be in sin, hence no more shame.

See for example Jeremiah 13:
"For as the loincloth clings to one’s loins, so I made the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah cling to me, says the Lord, in order that they might be for me a people, a name, a praise, and a glory."

In this case, God too wears "clothing," and it is not a mark of shame but glory...
:D Not a chance. God uses metaphors as similes that the Jews will understand, not to tell them how things will be in heaven. When he talks about beating plows into offensive weapons there is no way you can argue that in heaven or a perfect afterlife, people will plow and furrow, never mind make war. So you cannot use similes using clothing as evidence for what a pre -Eden perfection in heaven or on earth will be like. However, Genesis tells us exactly what heaven or earth will be like. A garden where they can eat of any fruit other than knowing Good and evil, which rules out embarrassment, prudishness and shame. They ain't gonna study war no more and will not plow, sow, or put up fences, nor shall women need epidurals or put up with any of the stuff that God inflicted for listening to that blasted snake. Having learned what nakedness was and shame along with it, there is no way that is other than a fall from grace, perfection and obedience and it is a failure of human understanding to think that their sin, originating from the Fall, is somehow good, moral and decent and in God's own afterlife it'll be long sleeved blouses and decently modest dresses. No siree, it'll all hang out in the presence of God, and His Faithful will no more give it no nevermind than they will to the billions of backsliders screaming their heads off in the fires of Hell.

If it ain't gonna work like that, it can't possible work at all.

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Re: Paradise - Clothing Optional?

Post #18

Post by theophile »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 8:52 am
tam wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:57 pm Peace to you,
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:53 pm [Replying to tam in post #13]

It makes no sense to me. The original effect of sin was to feel shame. Wearing of clothing is (biblically) a symbol of imperfect and worldly human thinking. The idea that swanning around wearing clobber is a human delusion means there cannot be clothing in heaven. That is assuming we are going to be as earthly,flawed and sinful there as we are here.

There cannot possibly be clothing in heaven.
The OP is questioning a resurrection on the earth, not in heaven.

Oh... actually no, he did not mention the earth. I just assumed because he said physical body.

My apologies.
Not a prob. O:) Either way ...and I am aware of the two afterlife - ideas, on the earth or in heaven.... Whatever the process of burning out the impurities for the deserving to be with God, as per Paul, no iniquity can remain and shame is iniquity. Earth or heaven, we all have to be nude. Clothing is a fall from perfect grace and shame, prudishness and all the sexual hang - ups are all down to Eve being too attentive to that snake. All that, trowsers made of leaves, grass skirts and artfully placed twiggs are all to go and it's Frolicksome Sands Resort on earth just as it is in heaven.
theophile wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:58 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:53 pm [Replying to tam in post #13]

It makes no sense to me. The original effect of sin was to feel shame. Wearing of clothing is (biblically) a symbol of imperfect and worldly human thinking. The idea that swanning around wearing clobber is a human delusion means there cannot be clothing in heaven. That is assuming we are going to be as earthly,flawed and sinful there as we are here.

There cannot possibly be clothing in heaven.
I don't think that's quite right. The idea is to no longer be in sin, hence no more shame.

See for example Jeremiah 13:
"For as the loincloth clings to one’s loins, so I made the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah cling to me, says the Lord, in order that they might be for me a people, a name, a praise, and a glory."

In this case, God too wears "clothing," and it is not a mark of shame but glory...
:D Not a chance. God uses metaphors as similes that the Jews will understand, not to tell them how things will be in heaven. When he talks about beating plows into offensive weapons there is no way you can argue that in heaven or a perfect afterlife, people will plow and furrow, never mind make war. So you cannot use similes using clothing as evidence for what a pre -Eden perfection in heaven or on earth will be like. However, Genesis tells us exactly what heaven or earth will be like. A garden where they can eat of any fruit other than knowing Good and evil, which rules out embarrassment, prudishness and shame. They ain't gonna study war no more and will not plow, sow, or put up fences, nor shall women need epidurals or put up with any of the stuff that God inflicted for listening to that blasted snake. Having learned what nakedness was and shame along with it, there is no way that is other than a fall from grace, perfection and obedience and it is a failure of human understanding to think that their sin, originating from the Fall, is somehow good, moral and decent and in God's own afterlife it'll be long sleeved blouses and decently modest dresses. No siree, it'll all hang out in the presence of God, and His Faithful will no more give it no nevermind than they will to the billions of backsliders screaming their heads off in the fires of Hell.

If it ain't gonna work like that, it can't possible work at all.
well, the very concepts of clothing and nakedness are themselves metaphors I would argue. I don't think the 'white robes' mentioned throughout scripture are literal clothing... so not sure where that leaves us on the whole OP :)

but you also ignored my first comment, that in paradise there is no sin. hence there should be no shame either, since what is there to be ashamed of? this undermines your argument irrespective of literal or metaphoric nature of the verses

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Re: Paradise - Clothing Optional?

Post #19

Post by Purple Knight »

tam wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:57 pmThe OP is questioning a resurrection on the earth, not in heaven.
I am that's correct. The JW doctrine in canonically correct in that regard. Heaven is usually not talked about Biblically as a place regular people go, and Jesus talks about people being raised from the dead physically.

Biblical scholar Bart Ehrman doesn't even think it's canon that anyone goes to Heaven. Heaven is where God is.

I was thinking about how the JWs have it right here and wondering how it would be like in Paradise (not Heaven). I personally want to wear clothes. But it occurs that if I didn't feel weird being naked, clothes might seem to be an annoyance, like I already feel about shoes.

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Re: Paradise - Clothing Optional?

Post #20

Post by theophile »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:58 pm
tam wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:57 pmThe OP is questioning a resurrection on the earth, not in heaven.
I am that's correct. The JW doctrine in canonically correct in that regard. Heaven is usually not talked about Biblically as a place regular people go, and Jesus talks about people being raised from the dead physically.

Biblical scholar Bart Ehrman doesn't even think it's canon that anyone goes to Heaven. Heaven is where God is.

I was thinking about how the JWs have it right here and wondering how it would be like in Paradise (not Heaven). I personally want to wear clothes. But it occurs that if I didn't feel weird being naked, clothes might seem to be an annoyance, like I already feel about shoes.
Aren't heaven and earth the same in the end when the new Jerusalem descends? That's how I've always understood it. I would say that convergence is paradise.

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