"Slavery" in the Bible

[POI]

Allow us readers to be very careful. We must make sure we identify the proper context here, to assure against hasty and/or self-serving conclusions.

Exodus 21:2-3:

"2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him." <-- Okay, this seems clear enough, if you are a purchased Hebrew, with a wife, you are both to go free in year 7.

Exodus 21:4:

"4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free." <-- Here is where things start to look sketchy for the modern-day believer. If the slave is provided with a wife, and they have kids, the wife and kids are to stay with the slave master. They are not to go free.

Exodus 21:5-6:

"5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life." <-- More uncomfortability for the Christian here. Without getting into the weeds, common sense suggests a special rule is made to trick the male Hebrew into remaining a slave for life.

Leviticus 25:44-46:

"44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." <-- More awkwardness for the believer, as the Bible reader clammers to find a rationale to make this passage not read the way it does.

Here is a basic definition of chattel slavery --> "Chattel slavery is full slavery in its traditional form whereby slaves are the complete property of their master, can be bought and sold by him and treated in any way that he wishes, which may include torture and other brutality, excessively bad working conditions, and sexual exploitation"

Looks like all the ingredients fit the given Bible description here, minus the torture. Wait a minute, this is covered in the rest of Exodus 21. (i.e.):

"20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." <-- So basically, since the slave is your property, beatings with impunity are acceptable. Just don't kill them.

For debate:

By applying common sense, does/did the Bible ever, and/or currently still sanction chattel slavery?

Again, by using common sense, can a believer effectively use the Bible in support of breeding chattel slaves?

************************

Before you answer, consider this.... Since the NT does not mention the abolition of 'slavery', and yet the Bible makes further proclamation(s) and/or addendums (in favor of retaining 'slavery',) this means the Bible is not against chattel slavery either. Further, the Christian may want to introduce the importance of the 'golden rule'. However, the specifics outweigh the generals. The specifics of the rules for engagement of slavery are outside the 'golden rule'. Otherwise, the Bible would be a one-pager. 'Slavery' is an expressed exception to the general rule. Thus, anytime a specific scenario is not invoked, yes, 'golden rule.'

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

There is slavery in the bible, indentured servitude, and there were rules given that were used to govern how to treat indentured servants.

In case you missed the exchange thus far, it's a little more than that. The Bible sanctions lifetime chattel slavery and slave breeding. If you agree here too, and think this is/was good, then I guess we are done. For which people will scratch their heads and wonder...

If not, please re-read the OP, and the entire exchange thus far. Because like you, I do not want to repeat what I have written, if I do not have to.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

There is slavery in the bible, indentured servitude, and there were rules given that were used to govern how to treat indentured servants.

In case you missed the exchange thus far, it's a little more than that. The Bible sanctions lifetime chattel slavery and slave breeding. If you agree here too, and think this is/was good, then I guess we are done. For which people will scratch their heads and wonder...

If not, please re-read the OP, and the entire exchange thus far. Because like you, I do not want to repeat what I have written, if I do not have to.

I'm minded to ask our pal A4G the Question that haunts me and i can never get any answer, let alone an honest one "Do theist apologists understand these arguments, or do they just lift things from apologetics sites and throw them at us?" It would explain how they fall off a cliff when rebutted.

As an example, there was a formative debate on the Nativities with a poster who for some reason did the whole debate twice. He had an argument based on redating Herod's death to later than 4 BC and making a loyalty declaration to Augustus in 3 BC the 'Registration' that Joseph had to sign up for. Now this was a nice apologetic, but when the date of the death of Herod was validated (from coinage and the Dio Cassius yearbook) and the declaration shown NOT to be the tax census of 6/7 AD according to Luke/Acts, he reverted to denial and abuse surprisingly quickly. It can be explained that he picked up this apologetic from some book, and when that was gone, he had nothing but denial and abuse.

Same thing with this Fad-of-the -month 'minimal evidence' thing. It looks like Bible apologists just pick up an 'atheist -stumper' and sling it at us without really understanding it.

[Falling Light 101]

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There is no slavery in the Bible - in fact there are some mistranslated passages as well as passages taken out of context.

for example - Lev 25 is SPECIFICALLY and ONLY about - debt forgiveness ordinance - “ YEAR OF JUBILEE “ - every 50 years and dealing with the homeless and poor “ Jews “ and those in debt​ - Jews who are working to repay debts and whom have lost their inheritance in property.....

and also dealing with - Non Israeli - Non Jews - people who are not Hebrew

- The “ YEAR OF JUBILEE “ was a - debt forgiveness ordinance - that occurred - every 50 years . As an act of Kindness - Privileges Benefits - designated ONLY for Fellow Israeli ; Israeli citizens – Jews. The context of the passage is referring specifically directly to - redeeming the Poor whom are indebted.

Non ....Citizens / FORIGNERS - THOSE WHO WERE NOT HEBREWS - they do not have this privilege. NON CITIZENS - “ foreigners “ would forever remain as a working class with normal jobs FOREVER as workers,, " bond servants - "

whom when “ if “ debt occurred, they fell into debt, their property and inheritance would not be returned to them and their, debts and losses could be transferred, to another -their debts and losses could be transferred to another bossdebts and losses could be re assigned to another bossdebts and losses could be relocated - to another,....... boss

at the time of - - “ YEAR OF JUBILEE “ only Jews would be set free from their debts. – Non - Jews did not receive this privilege. At this time Jewish citizens no longer could be expected to work - but - THOSE WHO WERE NOT HEBREWS, their services and duty in working would be permanent and perpetual, their bond services and work could be sold and bought and RELOCATED to another boss -

Lev 25 is SPECIFICALLY and ONLY about - debt forgiveness ordinance - “ YEAR OF JUBILEE “ - every 50 years

strangers - non Hebrews

:9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex / mistreat them
:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself;
35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.

Lev 19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land ....... thou shalt leave harvest / food for the poor and stranger:

Notice = Deu 23:15 Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee

: 16 He shall dwell with thee, even among you , in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him

My previous post would make no sense at all, unless we completely read and understand the entire chapter and know what the verses in the middle of the chapter are relating to. to avoid perpetuating confusion by ignoring the context and meaning of the verses - I present the entire chapter in its full context

THE PASSAGE IS NOT ABOUT “ THE CAPTURE “ AND ROUNDING UP OF HEATHENS AND STRANGERS AND ENSLAVING THEM - but dealing with the working class who are bond servants in a regular working environment, - in “ YEAR OF JUBILEE “ the redeemed Jew could go back to their inheritance or restart their lives debt free and redeemed

but non citizens and their debts could be transferred and sold and bought and they would continue to work a regular job

[Falling Light 101]

.

Another good, similar example,

The catholic -  translation  Exo 21:20  - 21

Exo 21:20  He that striketh his bondman, or bondwoman, with a rod, and they die under his hands, shall be guilty of the crime. 
:21  But if the party remain alive a day or two, he shall not be subject to the punishment, because it is his money. 

The protestant -  translation - K.J.V translates  Exo 21:20  - 21 - as

Exo 21:20  And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. 
:21  Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. 

The Trinitarian Translators indeed make it sound like that the MANUSCRIPTS are actually saying that someone is allowed to beat their slave to death - just so long as it takes longer than a day for the death

But when we look at the Hebrew manuscripts, this is not at all the message - here is exactly word for word the exact message in the manuscript.

Exo 21:20
 וכי FOR -  יכה STRIKING -   אישׁ A MAN -   את HIMSELF -   עבדו A SERVANT -   או OR -   את HIMSELF -   אמתו A MAID -   בשׁבט WITH A ROD -   ומת AND DIES -   תחת UNDER -   ידו HIS HAND -   נקם AVENGE -   ינקם׃ THIS VENGANCE

:21
 אך BUT -   אם IF -   יום A DAY -   או OR -   יומים TWO DAYS -   יעמד HE RISE -   לא NOT - יקם AVENGE / ESTABLISH -   כי THAT -   כספו HIS MONEY -   הוא׃ IS HIS

In fact - the manuscripts are saying that if a worker is hurt because he is being abused by his boss and become injured for just a brief day or two - and is unable to work, the boss is obligated and Commanded To Pay The Worker The Wages For The Days He Is Unable To Work. This is exactly what the manuscripts are saying - word for word…….

Exo 21:20 FOR STRIKING A MAN HIMSELF A SERVANT OR HIMSELF A MAID WITH A ROD AND DIES UNDER HIS HAND AVENGE THIS VENGANCE

:21 BUT IF A DAY OR TWO DAYS HE RISE NOT, AVENGE / ESTABLISH THAT HIS MONEY IS HIS

The previous verses above are saying the exact message - confirming the same exact EXAMPLE referring to two men who are fighting among one another and one of the men becomes injured.

Exo 21:18 And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed: :19 If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him - ………. ……… HE SHALL PAY FOR THE LOSS OF HIS TIME, AND SHALL CAUSE HIM TO BE THOROUGHLY HEALED.

And then the very next :21 - is referring to A BOSS injuring his worker - AGAIN explaining - IF A DAY OR TWO DAYS HE RISE NOT, AVENGE / ESTABLISH THAT HIS MONEY IS HIS

To establish that the workers money and wages are paid to him - the worker - who was unable to work BECAUSE HIS BOSS INJURED HIM. The Trinitarians twist the passage to say that SOMEONE is allowed to beat their worker to death - AND IT IS ALL OK - JUST AS LONG AS THE WORKER DIES A SLOW PLAINFUL DEATH OVER THE COURSE OF A DURATION OF A FEW DAYS - if it takes TWO DAYS FOR THE WORKER TO SLOWLY DIE - THEN THE BOSS HAS NO LIABILITY - nor responsibility for killing and murdering his worker.


but these type of mistranslations are exactly why many people project slavery onto the message of God's word - when in fact the Bible is completely against slavery. When we go to the ORIGINAL MEANING found in the " manuscripts " instead of relying upon false translations we see clearly exactly the original message, context and meaning.

[Falling Light 101]

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one more final message and then I will wait for more replies - sorry truly

All - These passages are not about rounding up people and enslaving them or mistreating people - i was just trying to explain what the Hebrews were purchasing and selling - it was about the working class - jobs, debt and hired Indentured servitude.

Indentured servitude is when a person is contracted to work for a specific number of years. The contract, called an "indenture", means a worker works for a fixed length of time, usually seven years or less).

This was also used in modern times as a way for a person to pay the cost of transportation to colonies in the Americas.
Like any loan, an indenture could be sold; - (indentured workers) services were commonly bought and sold when they arrived at their destinations. When the indenture (loan) was paid off, the worker was free. Sometimes they might be given a plot of land.

Indentured workers could usually marry, move about locally as long as the work got done and their "indentures" were paid.

but in the Bible -Indentured workers who are in debt could not expect to marry and have young children and and run up their bills increasing their debt and then just run off with their families when they have failed to fully repay their debts.

their family members - wives and children of men who were in debt were also expected to wait until the Children are grown and old enough to work - and then they would also be expected to repay their debts as adults.

what if you took in a man who was homeless, poor, in debt whom owed bills - you pay off this mans bills and he is ENDEBTED - Indentured worker - in the process of the man working for you to repay the money you paid for him - this man marries 3 or 4 wives and has 20 children - he could do this if he wanted - but now he is placing himself in further debt - and that was an option - bosses and business men who could afford to pay for their worker to raise a family, they would allow the man to build up a debt - HUGE DEBTS - in agreement that when the workers children grow up these children will work to repay the debts that their father and mother had created.


if a man marries a wife and has children and a family and the boss and landowner is feeding and paying to care for and raise the family of the indebted worker - this was an agreement and the way " MANY, MANY people lived in Israel - willingly - whole families - multiple families - would be brought up, children born - and they would be working families in agreement to pay off debt, gain financial freedom, obtain property of their own, whom they in turn would have the same benefitable situation for another family later in life when after they were able. when the children grow and begin working.

this is why Indentured workers who married wives while working to repay their debts who were -increasing their debt by creating children- and then just run off with their families when they have failed to fully repay their debts. also when a man marries a wife while repaying a debt, " AFTER HIS PERSONAL DEBTS ARE REPAID " he could not take out his wife with him and leave until his wife has worked to repay her debts,

Lev 25 - is specially about Hebrew (indentured workers) who were redeemed and their inheritance returned to them in the “ YEAR OF JUBILEE “ non citizens did not receive this redeemed status.

[POI]

.

There is no slavery in the Bible - in fact there are some mistranslated passages as well as passages taken out of context.

for example - Lev 25 is SPECIFICALLY and ONLY about - debt forgiveness ordinance - “ YEAR OF JUBILEE “ - every 50 years and dealing with the homeless and poor “ Jews “ and those in debt​ - Jews who are working to repay debts and whom have lost their inheritance in property.....

and also dealing with - Non Israeli - Non Jews - people who are not Hebrew

- The “ YEAR OF JUBILEE “ was a - debt forgiveness ordinance - that occurred - every 50 years . As an act of Kindness - Privileges Benefits - designated ONLY for Fellow Israeli ; Israeli citizens – Jews. The context of the passage is referring specifically directly to - redeeming the Poor whom are indebted.

Non ....Citizens / FORIGNERS - THOSE WHO WERE NOT HEBREWS - they do not have this privilege. NON CITIZENS - “ foreigners “ would forever remain as a working class with normal jobs FOREVER as workers,, " bond servants - "

whom when “ if “ debt occurred, they fell into debt, their property and inheritance would not be returned to them and their, debts and losses could be transferred, to another -their debts and losses could be transferred to another bossdebts and losses could be re assigned to another bossdebts and losses could be relocated - to another,....... boss

at the time of - - “ YEAR OF JUBILEE “ only Jews would be set free from their debts. – Non - Jews did not receive this privilege. At this time Jewish citizens no longer could be expected to work - but - THOSE WHO WERE NOT HEBREWS, their services and duty in working would be permanent and perpetual, their bond services and work could be sold and bought and RELOCATED to another boss -

Lev 25 is SPECIFICALLY and ONLY about - debt forgiveness ordinance - “ YEAR OF JUBILEE “ - every 50 years

strangers - non Hebrews

:9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex / mistreat them
:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself;
35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.

Lev 19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land ....... thou shalt leave harvest / food for the poor and stranger:

Notice = Deu 23:15 Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee

: 16 He shall dwell with thee, even among you , in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him

My previous post would make no sense at all, unless we completely read and understand the entire chapter and know what the verses in the middle of the chapter are relating to. to avoid perpetuating confusion by ignoring the context and meaning of the verses - I present the entire chapter in its full context

THE PASSAGE IS NOT ABOUT “ THE CAPTURE “ AND ROUNDING UP OF HEATHENS AND STRANGERS AND ENSLAVING THEM - but dealing with the working class who are bond servants in a regular working environment, - in “ YEAR OF JUBILEE “ the redeemed Jew could go back to their inheritance or restart their lives debt free and redeemed

but non citizens and their debts could be transferred and sold and bought and they would continue to work a regular job

Nothing in this response addresses the verses I mentioned in Leviticus 25. Further, I said nothing about the capture of people and making them slaves. Lifetime slaves could be made by tricking Hebrew servants, or if they were women, or if they were offspring of existing slaves.

Jubilee also only happened once every 50 years. The average life expectancy for humans was much less. For the average slave, likely even less than the free person. So yea, some slaves may be lucky enough to be near a Jubilee and set free. But many others, not-so-much.

Now why don't you address the verses I actually mentioned, particularly verse 46:

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

[POI]

.

Another good, similar example,

The catholic -  translation  Exo 21:20  - 21

Exo 21:20  He that striketh his bondman, or bondwoman, with a rod, and they die under his hands, shall be guilty of the crime. 
:21  But if the party remain alive a day or two, he shall not be subject to the punishment, because it is his money. 

The protestant -  translation - K.J.V translates  Exo 21:20  - 21 - as

Exo 21:20  And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. 
:21  Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. 

The Trinitarian Translators indeed make it sound like that the MANUSCRIPTS are actually saying that someone is allowed to beat their slave to death - just so long as it takes longer than a day for the death

But when we look at the Hebrew manuscripts, this is not at all the message - here is exactly word for word the exact message in the manuscript.

Exo 21:20
 וכי FOR -  יכה STRIKING -   אישׁ A MAN -   את HIMSELF -   עבדו A SERVANT -   או OR -   את HIMSELF -   אמתו A MAID -   בשׁבט WITH A ROD -   ומת AND DIES -   תחת UNDER -   ידו HIS HAND -   נקם AVENGE -   ינקם׃ THIS VENGANCE

:21
 אך BUT -   אם IF -   יום A DAY -   או OR -   יומים TWO DAYS -   יעמד HE RISE -   לא NOT - יקם AVENGE / ESTABLISH -   כי THAT -   כספו HIS MONEY -   הוא׃ IS HIS

In fact - the manuscripts are saying that if a worker is hurt because he is being abused by his boss and become injured for just a brief day or two - and is unable to work, the boss is obligated and Commanded To Pay The Worker The Wages For The Days He Is Unable To Work. This is exactly what the manuscripts are saying - word for word…….

Exo 21:20 FOR STRIKING A MAN HIMSELF A SERVANT OR HIMSELF A MAID WITH A ROD AND DIES UNDER HIS HAND AVENGE THIS VENGANCE

:21 BUT IF A DAY OR TWO DAYS HE RISE NOT, AVENGE / ESTABLISH THAT HIS MONEY IS HIS

The previous verses above are saying the exact message - confirming the same exact EXAMPLE referring to two men who are fighting among one another and one of the men becomes injured.

Exo 21:18 And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed: :19 If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him - ………. ……… HE SHALL PAY FOR THE LOSS OF HIS TIME, AND SHALL CAUSE HIM TO BE THOROUGHLY HEALED.

And then the very next :21 - is referring to A BOSS injuring his worker - AGAIN explaining - IF A DAY OR TWO DAYS HE RISE NOT, AVENGE / ESTABLISH THAT HIS MONEY IS HIS

To establish that the workers money and wages are paid to him - the worker - who was unable to work BECAUSE HIS BOSS INJURED HIM. The Trinitarians twist the passage to say that SOMEONE is allowed to beat their worker to death - AND IT IS ALL OK - JUST AS LONG AS THE WORKER DIES A SLOW PLAINFUL DEATH OVER THE COURSE OF A DURATION OF A FEW DAYS - if it takes TWO DAYS FOR THE WORKER TO SLOWLY DIE - THEN THE BOSS HAS NO LIABILITY - nor responsibility for killing and murdering his worker.


but these type of mistranslations are exactly why many people project slavery onto the message of God's word - when in fact the Bible is completely against slavery. When we go to the ORIGINAL MEANING found in the " manuscripts " instead of relying upon false translations we see clearly exactly the original message, context and meaning.

I've explained these verses ad nauseam. The Bible goes out of its way to grant complete impunity to the slave master, as long as the beating does not result in eyes/teeth loss, or death. This is likely why most slave masters beat their slaves on the backside.

The Bible also does not express what reason a slave master can and cannot beat their slaves. Or, how often they can be beaten. This is very sloppy and haphazard. Hence, if a slave refuses to work, or clams (s)he is injured, or getting too old, the slave master can beat this slave with impunity -- again, as long as the slave does not die, or lose an eye or teeth.

[Falling Light 101]

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IF IT WERE NOT TRUE

I would never say ……… that everything claimed here about the scriptures condoning slavery

this very claim - is exactly just like the claim that the lifespan of Hebrews at the time of Moses,,, was “ much less “ than a 50 year lifespan.

but this very claim is exactly just like all of the other claims we see about “ Slavery in the Bible “

if we read the Bible, instead of inventing things that are not in the bible, we would see that Moses lived 120 years, Aaron lived 123 years, Joshua lived 110 years, Joseph lived 110 years

My question is - what would realistically be considered “ much less “ than 50 years ?
Would “ much less “ than 50 be considered 35 years old, would we be led to believe that the scriptures record average people living to 25 – 35 years old ? . . . . .

this claim is contradicting a “ 70 to 80 “ year difference
Yes nearly everything mentioned in the last 2 posts is precisely true but - the only things that is refused or unknowingly mentioned

is the undeniable fact that that the scriptures command the Hebrew were NOT to trick the stranger and non citizen
is the undeniable fact that that the scriptures command the Hebrew - love the stranger and non citizen as yourselves

is the undeniable fact that that the scriptures command that If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief  - SHALE DIE –
and thou shalt put evil away from among you.

:9  Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Lev 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex / mistreat them
:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him  as thyself;
35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.
Lev 19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land ....... thou shalt leave harvest / food for the poor and stranger:
Concerning actual slaves from other neighboring nations

Notice = Deu 23:15  Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee : 16 He shall dwell with thee, even among you , in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him.

Here, the Israelites, ( WHO did not OWN anyone as slaves ) were not to take part in rounding up and RETURNING or SELLING or oppressing the escaped slaves of neighboring nations.

They were to take care of these escaped slaves, KEEP SAFE, Care for and Feed them and respect them and give them a place and a chance to work in freedom. To work, live in freedom, respect in Israel, free to go as they pleased. The PUNISHMENT for slavery in Israel COMMANDED BY GOD……. Deu 24:7……. was a “  FULLY AUTOMATIC DEATH PENALTY, “ and there was no slave trade whatsoever.

and the only reason that non – citizens COULD be in a permanent, perpetual state of servant – hood and servitude is because non – citizens are not redeemed in the year of Jubilee,,
subject and context , non – citizens were to be forever remain as a working class until their debts were repaid or until they earned the property they purchased
and their inheritance would never be returned and given back in the year of Jubilee
this is the subject and context of the entire chapter of “ Lev 25: “ regarding non citizens and their status as permanent, perpetual workers whom were not redeemed in the 50 year of Jubilee, their debts and indentures
subject and context - of THE PASSAGE in Lev 25: is not about “ the capture “ and rounding up of heathens and strangers and enslaving them. But explaining that the foreigners ((NON CITIZENS)))) HEATHENS ............. . in the 50 year of Jubilee,

subject and context ...... STRANGERS - do not have this privilege.  NON CITIZENS - “ foreigners “ would forever remain as a working class with normal jobs,  FOREVER as workers,, bond servants - whom when  “ if “ debt occurred, they fell into debt,  their property and inheritance would not be returned to them and their, debts and losses could be transferred, to another - forever, for all time beyond the the 50 year of Jubilee,

foreigners “ debts and losses could be ….. transferred - to another - purchased and sold
foreigners “ debts and losses could be …… re assigned - to another - purchased and sold
foreigners “ debts and losses could be….. relocated - to another - purchased and sold
If the Hebrews were not capturing and rounding up heathens and strangers and enslaving them - how is this slavery for expecting someone to work for a living ?
Trickery is trickery and honesty is honesty - however, the scriptures prohibit trickery and demand honestly regarding all working class / workers,, bond servants –
:” full automatic death penalty “. was given to any who captures and steals another Hebrew person and tricks them into enslavement

HERE BELOW - - THIS WAS THE RIGHT OF THE STRANGER AND NON - CITIZEN
Lev 25:47  And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner
  After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him: 
  Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself. 
  And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubile: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him. 
  If there be yet many years behind, according unto them he shall give again the price of his redemption out of the money that he was bought for. 
  And if there remain but few years unto the year of jubile, then he shall count with him, and according unto his years shall he give him again the price of his redemption. 

In other words - when a Hebrew citizen has waxed poor, “ a Hebrew citizen - BECOMES POOR - HAS FALLEN INTO DEBT “ a Hebrew citizen was homeless or deep in debt……

and the Hebrew citizen sells his debts to a non – citizen and becomes a worker or an indentured servant / or bond servant…… selling his services unto the stranger or sojourner - non citizen,
THEN - THE JEWS WERE EXPECTED TO FULLY REPAY THE STRANGER / NON - CITIZEN IN FULL, FOR PRICE THAT THE STRANGER / NON - CITIZEN HAD PAID TO PAY OFF THE DEBTS OF THE CITIZEN - IN THE YEAR OF JUBILEE.

EVERY ASPECT AND DETAIL OF THIS WAS FAIR, EQUATIBLE, HONEST AND TRICKERY WAS PROHIBITED IN THE STRICTEST MEASURES

[Purple Knight]

Here is a basic definition of chattel slavery --> "Chattel slavery is full slavery in its traditional form whereby slaves are the complete property of their master, can be bought and sold by him and treated in any way that he wishes, which may include torture and other brutality, excessively bad working conditions, and sexual exploitation"

American slavery yes. Biblical slavery no.

https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/slavery/e ... docs1.html
If you can kill your slave then he is your complete property. In America you could. If you can't, then he is not.

...Is what I'd say if I were inclined to be a clever definitionalist.

But the truth is more complicated. I'm sure non-Hebrew slaves were abused to the point of death and I'm sure at least sometimes nobody did anything about it, and I'm sure it was often. Who would there be to do anything about it? To report it, even? And whose side would the authorities be on? I'm also sure some (but probably very few) treated their Black slaves decently in America. Some even gave their Black slaves time "off" and land to work for themselves, and anything they grew off of it was theirs to sell, making this "slave" better off than someone who is indebted for life, because he could earn wealth.

"Slavery is bad but you are technically free so stop whining" is too often used to justify the capitalistic system of lifetime debt-slavery, which never lets someone accumulate wealth. They live hand-to-mouth until they die, never out of debt, and any little extra they accumulate is taken from them swiftly. This is slavery. By any reasonable judgment, it is.

Banks being able to freely generate ten times the money that is deposited in them, then loan that out at interest, well knowing that not everyone can pay it back because there isn't that much money once they add interest, because they created the money, then well knowing they will be able to seize at least some property, because they gave out funny money they created out of nothing, is also a form of slavery. If I offer you a piece of paper that I wrote "one dollar" on, knowing I only made one, and then asking you to pay me back two of them, that's theft by scam if not slavery by scam. If you work all your life to serve the bank trying to buy a house they fronted you funny money for, simply because they have the privilege to create funny money and you do not, I tend to say that's slavery, especially when there's a guarantee that not all houses will be paid for and some will be seized by the bank.

[POI]

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My question is - [/B]what would realistically be considered “ much less “ than 50 years ?
Would “ much less “ than 50 be considered 35 years old, would we be led to believe that the scriptures record average people living to 25 – 35 years old ? . . . . .

We can only speculate. But I'd imagine a slave did not live as long as a free person, in general. But this does not even matter really. If a 'Jubilee' happened twice a century, and if one is deemed a slave 40 years until the next Jubilee, I doubt they have much to look forward to... Many slaves were kept for life, via the Bible's instruction in Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25. No 'Jubilee' was going to save them either.

the scriptures command that If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief  - SHALE DIE –
and thou shalt put evil away from among you.

There exists differing laws for differing groups of people. The male Hebrews can be released at year 7. The women are kept for life. The foreign slaves are kept for life. Differing rules also existed between a free person, versus a slave. The verses you mention above express the rules pertaining to a free person. There exists differing rules for the free, versus the Hebrew slave, versus the foreign slave, versus the female slave, versus a free pregnant woman, etc.

:9  Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Lev 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex / mistreat them
:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him  as thyself;
35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.
Lev 19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land ....... thou shalt leave harvest / food for the poor and stranger:
Concerning actual slaves from other neighboring nations

Notice = Deu 23:15  Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee : 16 He shall dwell with thee, even among you , in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him.

Here, the Israelites, ( WHO did not OWN anyone as slaves ) were not to take part in rounding up and RETURNING or SELLING or oppressing the escaped slaves of neighboring nations.

They were to take care of these escaped slaves, KEEP SAFE, Care for and Feed them and respect them and give them a place and a chance to work in freedom. To work, live in freedom, respect in Israel, free to go as they pleased. The PUNISHMENT for slavery in Israel COMMANDED BY GOD……. Deu 24:7……. was a “  FULLY AUTOMATIC DEATH PENALTY, “ and there was no slave trade whatsoever.

and the only reason that non – citizens COULD be in a permanent, perpetual state of servant – hood and servitude is because non – citizens are not redeemed in the year of Jubilee,,
subject and context , non – citizens were to be forever remain as a working class until their debts were repaid or until they earned the property they purchased
and their inheritance would never be returned and given back in the year of Jubilee
this is the subject and context of the entire chapter of “ Lev 25: “ regarding non citizens and their status as permanent, perpetual workers whom were not redeemed in the 50 year of Jubilee, their debts and indentures
subject and context - of THE PASSAGE in Lev 25: is not about “ the capture “ and rounding up of heathens and strangers and enslaving them. But explaining that the foreigners ((NON CITIZENS)))) HEATHENS ............. . in the 50 year of Jubilee,

subject and context ...... STRANGERS - do not have this privilege.  NON CITIZENS - “ foreigners “ would forever remain as a working class with normal jobs,  FOREVER as workers,, bond servants - whom when  “ if “ debt occurred, they fell into debt,  their property and inheritance would not be returned to them and their, debts and losses could be transferred, to another - forever, for all time beyond the the 50 year of Jubilee,

foreigners “ debts and losses could be ….. transferred - to another - purchased and sold
foreigners “ debts and losses could be …… re assigned - to another - purchased and sold
foreigners “ debts and losses could be….. relocated - to another - purchased and sold
If the Hebrews were not capturing and rounding up heathens and strangers and enslaving them - how is this slavery for expecting someone to work for a living ?
Trickery is trickery and honesty is honesty - however, the scriptures prohibit trickery and demand honestly regarding all working class / workers,, bond servants –
:” full automatic death penalty “. was given to any who captures and steals another Hebrew person and tricks them into enslavement

HERE BELOW - - THIS WAS THE RIGHT OF THE STRANGER AND NON - CITIZEN
Lev 25:47  And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner
  After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him: 
  Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself. 
  And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubile: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him. 
  If there be yet many years behind, according unto them he shall give again the price of his redemption out of the money that he was bought for. 
  And if there remain but few years unto the year of jubile, then he shall count with him, and according unto his years shall he give him again the price of his redemption. 

In other words - when a Hebrew citizen has waxed poor, “ a Hebrew citizen - BECOMES POOR - HAS FALLEN INTO DEBT “ a Hebrew citizen was homeless or deep in debt……

and the Hebrew citizen sells his debts to a non – citizen and becomes a worker or an indentured servant / or bond servant…… selling his services unto the stranger or sojourner - non citizen,
THEN - THE JEWS WERE EXPECTED TO FULLY REPAY THE STRANGER / NON - CITIZEN IN FULL, FOR PRICE THAT THE STRANGER / NON - CITIZEN HAD PAID TO PAY OFF THE DEBTS OF THE CITIZEN - IN THE YEAR OF JUBILEE.

EVERY ASPECT AND DETAIL OF THIS WAS FAIR, EQUATIBLE, HONEST AND TRICKERY WAS PROHIBITED IN THE STRICTEST MEASURES

Your responses are very hard to follow....

But in a nutshell, if you are a tricked Hebrew servant, because you did not read the fine print before engaging - (Exodus 21), or a female, and the choice was not your own to enter into this permanent contract (Exodus 21), born into slavery (Exodus 21), or a purchased foreign slave (Leviticus 25), you will never pay off any dept. You are your master's property for life.