Allow us readers to be very careful. We must make sure we identify the proper context here, to assure against hasty and/or self-serving conclusions.
Exodus 21:2-3:
"2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him." <-- Okay, this seems clear enough, if you are a purchased Hebrew, with a wife, you are both to go free in year 7.
Exodus 21:4:
"4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free." <-- Here is where things start to look sketchy for the modern-day believer. If the slave is provided with a wife, and they have kids, the wife and kids are to stay with the slave master. They are not to go free.
Exodus 21:5-6:
"5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life." <-- More uncomfortability for the Christian here. Without getting into the weeds, common sense suggests a special rule is made to trick the male Hebrew into remaining a slave for life.
Leviticus 25:44-46:
"44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." <-- More awkwardness for the believer, as the Bible reader clammers to find a rationale to make this passage not read the way it does.
Here is a basic definition of chattel slavery --> "Chattel slavery is full slavery in its traditional form whereby slaves are the complete property of their master, can be bought and sold by him and treated in any way that he wishes, which may include torture and other brutality, excessively bad working conditions, and sexual exploitation"
Looks like all the ingredients fit the given Bible description here, minus the torture. Wait a minute, this is covered in the rest of Exodus 21. (i.e.):
"20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." <-- So basically, since the slave is your property, beatings with impunity are acceptable. Just don't kill them.
For debate:
By applying common sense, does/did the Bible ever, and/or currently still sanction chattel slavery?
Again, by using common sense, can a believer effectively use the Bible in support of breeding chattel slaves?
************************
Before you answer, consider this.... Since the NT does not mention the abolition of 'slavery', and yet the Bible makes further proclamation(s) and/or addendums (in favor of retaining 'slavery',) this means the Bible is not against chattel slavery either. Further, the Christian may want to introduce the importance of the 'golden rule'. However, the specifics outweigh the generals. The specifics of the rules for engagement of slavery are outside the 'golden rule'. Otherwise, the Bible would be a one-pager. 'Slavery' is an expressed exception to the general rule. Thus, anytime a specific scenario is not invoked, yes, 'golden rule.'
"Slavery" in the Bible
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"Slavery" in the Bible
Post #1In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
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"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible
Post #171Bible tells:POI wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 10:36 pm Bumping this topic:
For debate:
By applying common sense, does/did the Bible ever, and/or currently still sanction chattel slavery? I'd say yes.
Again, by using common sense, can a believer effectively use the Bible in support of breeding chattel slaves? I'd say yes.
All things, therefore, whatever ye may will that men may be doing to you, so also do to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
Matt. 7:12
That means, if you keep slaves, or breed slaves, you would want that same to be done to you? OR if you don't want to be a slave, you don't keep anyone else as a slave?
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible
Post #172This was already addressed in the bottom of the OP.1213 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:35 amBible tells:POI wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 10:36 pm Bumping this topic:
For debate:
By applying common sense, does/did the Bible ever, and/or currently still sanction chattel slavery? I'd say yes.
Again, by using common sense, can a believer effectively use the Bible in support of breeding chattel slaves? I'd say yes.
All things, therefore, whatever ye may will that men may be doing to you, so also do to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
Matt. 7:12
That means, if you keep slaves, or breed slaves, you would want that same to be done to you? OR if you don't want to be a slave, you don't keep anyone else as a slave?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible
Post #173Ok, then why did you ask "can a believer effectively use the Bible in support..."? He can, if it would be ok for him to be treated like that.POI wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 10:04 amThis was already addressed in the bottom of the OP.1213 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:35 amBible tells:POI wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 10:36 pm Bumping this topic:
For debate:
By applying common sense, does/did the Bible ever, and/or currently still sanction chattel slavery? I'd say yes.
Again, by using common sense, can a believer effectively use the Bible in support of breeding chattel slaves? I'd say yes.
All things, therefore, whatever ye may will that men may be doing to you, so also do to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
Matt. 7:12
That means, if you keep slaves, or breed slaves, you would want that same to be done to you? OR if you don't want to be a slave, you don't keep anyone else as a slave?
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible
Post #174You are responding as if I did not already address what you are saying. I do not feel like going backwards. I've already informed you why the 'golden rule' does not apply, at length. Please go look it up, I do not care to repeat it.1213 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 6:13 amOk, then why did you ask "can a believer effectively use the Bible in support..."? He can, if it would be ok for him to be treated like that.POI wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 10:04 amThis was already addressed in the bottom of the OP.1213 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:35 amBible tells:POI wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 10:36 pm Bumping this topic:
For debate:
By applying common sense, does/did the Bible ever, and/or currently still sanction chattel slavery? I'd say yes.
Again, by using common sense, can a believer effectively use the Bible in support of breeding chattel slaves? I'd say yes.
All things, therefore, whatever ye may will that men may be doing to you, so also do to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
Matt. 7:12
That means, if you keep slaves, or breed slaves, you would want that same to be done to you? OR if you don't want to be a slave, you don't keep anyone else as a slave?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible
Post #175You know the answer to that, or should. Slavery is not ok for "Our" people (because God says so) Slavery for everyone else is ok. It is a human instinctive social view of 'Other tribes'.Take their women, enslave the men. That is what we get in a man -made religion and book.1213 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 6:13 amOk, then why did you ask "can a believer effectively use the Bible in support..."? He can, if it would be ok for him to be treated like that.POI wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 10:04 amThis was already addressed in the bottom of the OP.1213 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:35 amBible tells:POI wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 10:36 pm Bumping this topic:
For debate:
By applying common sense, does/did the Bible ever, and/or currently still sanction chattel slavery? I'd say yes.
Again, by using common sense, can a believer effectively use the Bible in support of breeding chattel slaves? I'd say yes.
All things, therefore, whatever ye may will that men may be doing to you, so also do to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
Matt. 7:12
That means, if you keep slaves, or breed slaves, you would want that same to be done to you? OR if you don't want to be a slave, you don't keep anyone else as a slave?
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible
Post #176Bible says:TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:21 am You know the answer to that, or should. Slavery is not ok for "Our" people (because God says so) Slavery for everyone else is ok. It is a human instinctive social view of 'Other tribes'.Take their women, enslave the men. That is what we get in a man -made religion and book.
Anyone who kidnaps someone and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
Exod. 21:16
How could anyone forcefully take a slave, if that is obeyed?
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible
Post #177It is hard not to see that as dreadfully deceptive, and your only excuse is that you borrowed the apologetics excuse.1213 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:11 amBible says:TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:21 am You know the answer to that, or should. Slavery is not ok for "Our" people (because God says so) Slavery for everyone else is ok. It is a human instinctive social view of 'Other tribes'.Take their women, enslave the men. That is what we get in a man -made religion and book.
Anyone who kidnaps someone and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
Exod. 21:16
How could anyone forcefully take a slave, if that is obeyed?
Because it is nothing to do with obtaining foreign slaves as a transaction, with money, not by kidnapping them. Especially if the 'someone' is a Hebrew.
It is nothing to do with the instructions easily given in the Bible for owning, passing on as property and knocking about, slaves.
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible
Post #178You are arguing oranges while I'm arguing apples. Please re-read the debate questions and answer them accordingly. In the OP, I also explain why the answer to the debate questions is (yes). (i.e.):1213 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:11 amBible says:TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:21 am You know the answer to that, or should. Slavery is not ok for "Our" people (because God says so) Slavery for everyone else is ok. It is a human instinctive social view of 'Other tribes'.Take their women, enslave the men. That is what we get in a man -made religion and book.
Anyone who kidnaps someone and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
Exod. 21:16
How could anyone forcefully take a slave, if that is obeyed?
By applying common sense, does/did the Bible ever, and/or currently still sanction chattel slavery? If no, why not?
Again, by using common sense, can a believer effectively use the Bible in support of breeding chattel slaves? If no, why not?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible
Post #179I have let this topic marinate long enough... It looks like theists have no argument(s) against the claims that the Bible can effectively be used to accomplish (2) tasks:
1) Sanction lifetime chattel slavery
2) Sanction the breeding of lifetime chattel slaves
Thank you for your participation.
1) Sanction lifetime chattel slavery
2) Sanction the breeding of lifetime chattel slaves
Thank you for your participation.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible
Post #180For instance by killing his parents and just taking the kid.1213 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:11 amBible says:TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:21 am You know the answer to that, or should. Slavery is not ok for "Our" people (because God says so) Slavery for everyone else is ok. It is a human instinctive social view of 'Other tribes'.Take their women, enslave the men. That is what we get in a man -made religion and book.
Anyone who kidnaps someone and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
Exod. 21:16
How could anyone forcefully take a slave, if that is obeyed?
Its logically impossible to kidnap a standalone orphan.
Last edited by The Nice Centurion on Thu Jan 04, 2024 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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