Is Jesus mediator only for the “anointed class” of JW’s?

[MissKate13]

If true, then WHO mediates for the rest of the Jehovah’s Witnesses?

[2timothy316]

This entire discussion about the 144,000 and the JW's, and the special status of whomever, seems to me the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. It reminds me of the disciples' quarrels about who was greatest among them. In any event, this discussion is a perfect example of the kind of thing that drives people FAR from the church. It is hard to think of a discussion that is more divisive and contrary to the spirit of Jesus trying to get his lambs into the fold. viewtopic.php?p=1120072#p1120072

There are not two classes of Christians taught in Scripture where one rules over the other. That is false teaching. Watchtower is all about power and control.

I fail to see what this gives them? They don't have anyway to force me or any JW to do anything. So Power and control over what?

Power and control over people.

True. They can’t force anyone to do anything. But they can control people psychologically.

Do you remember Jonestown, and how 400 people drank the kool aid? They knew it would kill them, but they drank it anyway. Mind control is a powerful force, and we are all subject to it to a certain degree.

Think about how the media controls the masses in our country. I don’t listen to any news because of it. If all you hear is one side, you begin to believe it.

I have never been offered kool aid at a meeting. So I have no idea what you're talking about.

I have heard all sides. I have done more research on this subject than you can imagine. I have lost count how many times I have read the Bible. I have also lost count on how many times I have had this exact conversation with people. In every conversation no one has come with something better. Its just people parrotting the same out context scriptures over and over. It seems to me many read less than 1% of the Bible and listen to their own voice more. To me the kool aid are the conspiracy theories that people think that they can somehow be controlled.

Mind control doesn't exist. It's people that simply only listen to and watch what they want to hear and see, just as you admitted to doing. I and millions of others live by a simple Bible principle found at Proverbs 14:15, "The naive person believes every word, But the shrewd one ponders each step." I wonder how many have pondered much more than what they learned from their parents and church growing up? They don't want to leave what they feel is comfortable for them. You see here is the part you don't know. I left the JWs when I was young to find a different path. I have left what was comfortable. Guess what, long story short there wasn't a better path after a 15 year search.

Few can say they have done that and I can't find any one that has a better grasp on the Bible than the people in the Jehovah' Witness religion. It took humility to come to that conclusion and to stop putting my own voice above that of the Bible....not just the parts I wanted to agree with but the WHOLE Bible. I had to break-out of my comfort-zone and stop putting my fingers in my going "la la la la" to find truth. You think what you're saying is new to me. It is actually very familiar to me and I have found it to be unscriptural.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #171]
Mind control does exist. What Jim Jones did in Guyana is factual. It’s not a conspiracy theory. It was the headline of every newspaper in America in the late 70s.

“Jim Jones died of a gunshot wound to the head in Jonestown, Guyana, on November 18, 1978. His death occurred during the Jonestown Massacre, when he ordered the mass murder-suicide of more than 900 members of his Peoples Temple religious group.”

The people willingly drank cyanide-laced punch, which birthed the phrase “drinking the Kool-Aid,” referring to those who blindly follow others.

The trigger apparently was a visit by a member of Congress, Rep. Leo Ryan of California, who had flown to Guyana to investigate whether Jones' followers were being forced to remain there against their will. Ryan and NBC journalist Don Harris confronted Jones on camera about a Peoples Temple member who had pleaded for help in getting away. Later Both Ryan and Harris were ambushed and shot to death on an airport tarmac as they attempted to return to the U.S., along with two other journalists and a defector from Jones' group

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #167]

I don’t do links.

It is a link to our conversation on the Kingdom. I thought it would be helpful.

Look up the word “kingdom” in the New Testament original Greek. It means sovereignty, royal power. It refers to the kingly rule, reign and the governance of Jesus Christ.

Yes, and that usually also means there are also subjects OF the Kingdom (subjects who are not the kings and priests of a Kingdom). Kingdom also means the territory or realm of a King.

As stated in the previous post(s), I do agree that the Kingdom is within us (and that is here and now). At some point, however, Christ is going to return and gather His Bride up to Him (New Jerusalem), and then New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God and reigns upon the earth.


I am going to copy-paste instead of posting a link since you do not do links:

Peace to you!

I have not read all 88 pages of this thread that has resurfaced. I will just focus on the OP. You are looking for scriptural reasons to back this up:

A Good God would not send to hell a decent person, simply for not believing in his son.

Setting aside for the moment what 'hell' is (a place of fiery torment or simply the grave), more than just Christians enter the Kingdom.

We can see this in the sheep and the goats parable, where the sheep the goats are neither of them Christian, but the sheep are still invited into the Kingdom:

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left."

Christians, on the other hand, are taken up. When Christ returns, He gathers up those who belong to Him - His Bride.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1Thessalonians 4:16,17

Christ Himself said, speaking of His return:

"I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."


Back to the parable:

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in. I needed clothes and you clothed me. I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?"

The King will reply, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."


1 - The sheep are invited in on the basis of what they did to Christ's brothers. (not knowingly, for gain, but unknowingly - because they had to ask when they did good to Him, and a Christian would know that by doing good to His brothers, they are doing good to Him - even if just from reading this parable)

2 - People have objected to this understanding because the sheep are called righteous, and they think that only those who believe in Christ and God can be righteous. But this is untrue. There is a second witness to those people who will be called righteous based on what they DO.

Paul writes,

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through [Jesus] Christ, as my gospel declares."


It is the law of love that these sheep have written upon their hearts, and they do naturally the requirements of that law, and that is why they have also done good to even the least of Christ's brothers. Because they do that good - out of love - to ALL people.



They are not in Christ - so they do not rule as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom. But they are in love, have love as a covering, and they are also declared righteous, and invited into the Kingdom.


*****


As for Christians:

Christ gathers all of those who belong to Him - His Bride - to rule as kings and priests with Him for a thousand years in His Kingdom. Christians sit down upon thrones with Him.

You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." Revelation 5:10

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. Revelation 3:21

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6


The simplest question to ask here is if all Christians (not all who call themselves Christians are Christians) are kings and priests of the Kingdom, then who are the subjects of that Kingdom?

**


Then there is also the resurrection of the dead, the second resurrection (after the thousand years, after Satan has been released, the battle has been won) The dead - everyone who has ever died - small and great - are resurrected. Some to judgment, and some to life. (revelation 20:11-15)

But Christians were already gathered to Christ in the first resurrection. So how can they be among the dead now being resurrected? Yet, these dead are judged according to their individual books (the deeds and words of their lives). Same as the sheep and the goats were judged. And any whose names are written in the lamb's book of life are also invited into the Kingdom.

Two resurrections. The first for Christians. The second for everyone else who has died, from the beginning.


****


On top of all of that, all Israel will be saved.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

All Israel will not be kings and priests - as they would have been had they accepted their King when He came to them and called them. Some will be kings and priests (the remnant that God reserved for Himself... the 144 000 written about in Revelation), and any more than that number who accept Christ. But all will be saved, and invited into the Kingdom.


***

This will not be enough for all of those who have been convinced that Christians go to heaven, and everyone else goes to hell.

But at the very least, those who seek truth should be able to at least reason - except for the fear that religion has installed in man - that someone who has love upon their hearts, and does the requirements of that law, can be invited into the Kingdom. They are not going to wreak havoc in the Kingdom. They have proven that the law is upon their heart.

God is good. And just. And merciful. And love. We should probably stop putting our limitations on Him.


None need take my word for anything. Test against what is written. Test against love. To know the truth, ask Christ for the truth of this matter (so test against the light that is Christ). May you, if you wish them be given ears so as to be able to hear the truth from Him; as well as to hear the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come. Take the free gift of the water of Life."



I do not have to drop scripture to have this understanding. Scripture supports it, as I have shared with you above. Hopefully that helps along the line with what you were asking.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Peace again to you!

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #171]
Mind control does exist. What Jim Jones did in Guyana is factual. It’s not a conspiracy theory. It was the headline of every newspaper in America in the late 70s.

“Jim Jones died of a gunshot wound to the head in Jonestown, Guyana, on November 18, 1978. His death occurred during the Jonestown Massacre, when he ordered the mass murder-suicide of more than 900 members of his Peoples Temple religious group.”

The people willingly drank cyanide-laced punch, which birthed the phrase “drinking the Kool-Aid,” referring to those who blindly follow others.

The trigger apparently was a visit by a member of Congress, Rep. Leo Ryan of California, who had flown to Guyana to investigate whether Jones' followers were being forced to remain there against their will. Ryan and NBC journalist Don Harris confronted Jones on camera about a Peoples Temple member who had pleaded for help in getting away. Later Both Ryan and Harris were ambushed and shot to death on an airport tarmac as they attempted to return to the U.S., along with two other journalists and a defector from Jones' group

There is no scientific evidence for mind control. People believe listen to what they want to hear. You want to hear and believe that a person can be mind controlled so that is what you believe. Because it makes no sense to you that a person would do what they did at Jonestown and mind control is how you make sense of it. But people are mislead not mind controlled. Yet there were many that were held down and force to drink it and some mostly children drank it unknowingly.

Here is the point. I don't believe that there are two different destinies for people on earth because I'm under mind control or just because it was published in a watchtower article. I believe it because it is the only thing that makes sense with the whole Bible. I don't believe in things that don't harmonize FULLY with the Bible. I don't take the word of some person on the internet either. I study diligently everything anyone presents to me and if it contradicts the Bible then the dogma is dismissed. I dismissed that all people go to heaven a LONG time ago and it wasn't harmonious with the Bible then and it still isn't today.

You attack the WTBTS only because you're not making any headway on refuting the scriptures that I and other JWs have presented. It is called the Ad hominem fallacy. When a person can't attack the message they attack the person or the source of where they perceive to message to come from. This really doesn't work in your favor as far the debate goes. It makes your stance on the issue look weaker than they were before as now you have turned to insulting comments about WTBTS mind control trying to damage the reputation of something you know very little about. Which is why I don't give it much attention.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #174]

All people don’t receive eternal life. Only those who obey the gospel, who are born of water and the Spirit will enter the kingdom of heaven. The rest will end up in the Lake of Fire.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #174]

All people don’t receive eternal life. Only those who obey the gospel, who are born of water and the Spirit will enter the kingdom of heaven. The rest will end up in the Lake of Fire.

Yet the details of all this is where we differ. There is so much more in the Bible than the 3 sentences you have here.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #174]

All people don’t receive eternal life. Only those who obey the gospel, who are born of water and the Spirit will enter the kingdom of heaven. The rest will end up in the Lake of Fire.

It's true. Not all people will receive everlasting life. Those that willlfully disregard the laws and principles outlined by Jehovah in His Word will end up being completely obliterated in the symbolic lake of fire. The kingdom is entered by those that lived after Jesus' death and resurrection and have been anointed with Jehovah's Spirit to serve in the spirit realm. The people that these anointed people will guide from heaven will be on this earth, living in paradise conditions, and will remain so forever, as long as they adhere to God's will.

Three destinations: (1)Heaven, (2) Paradise Earth, (3) Annihilation

(3) "Evildoers will be cut off, (2) but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth....(2) But the meek ones will possess the earth, and they will indeed find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace....The righteous will possess the earth, and they will reside forever on it." (Psalm 37: 9,11,29)

(1) "Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

"And you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." (Rev. 5:10)

(3) "As soon as the 1,000 years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the 4 corners of the earth....But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them." (Rev.20: 7,9)

(2) "Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth." (Matthew 5:5)

[MissKate13]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #174]

All people don’t receive eternal life. Only those who obey the gospel, who are born of water and the Spirit will enter the kingdom of heaven. The rest will end up in the Lake of Fire.

Yet the details of all this is where we differ. There is so much more in the Bible than the 3 sentences you have here.

There isn’t enough space for me to quote from the Bible all there is to say about eternal life and the Lake of Fire. Besides, it’s off topic. Time to get back to the OP question.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #174]

All people don’t receive eternal life. Only those who obey the gospel, who are born of water and the Spirit will enter the kingdom of heaven. The rest will end up in the Lake of Fire.

Yet the details of all this is where we differ. There is so much more in the Bible than the 3 sentences you have here.

There isn’t enough space for me to quote from the Bible all there is to say about eternal life and the Lake of Fire. Besides, it’s off topic. Time to get back to the OP question.

Actually you and the Bible are so different on the basics the OP is not something you and I even need to be talking about. It's like watching someone build a house on crooked ground. Because the foundation isn't right the whole house isn't right. We don't even agree on who God is. Why would we even being talking about such an advanced topic? It's pointless.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #174]

All people don’t receive eternal life. Only those who obey the gospel, who are born of water and the Spirit will enter the kingdom of heaven. The rest will end up in the Lake of Fire.

Yet the details of all this is where we differ. There is so much more in the Bible than the 3 sentences you have here.

There isn’t enough space for me to quote from the Bible all there is to say about eternal life and the Lake of Fire. Besides, it’s off topic. Time to get back to the OP question.

Actually you and the Bible are so different on the basics the OP is not something you and I even need to be talking about. It's like watching someone build a house on crooked ground. Because the foundation isn't right the whole house isn't right. We don't even agree on who God is. Why would we even being talking about such an advanced topic? It's pointless.

My differences are with Watchtower, not the Bible.

The concept of Christ as mediator is not a difficult one to understand at all. Perhaps Watchtower has made it difficult for its followers in the way they present it, and that may be why you see it as such.

We have the hope of salvation because of Jesus’ work as our mediator. He brought about peace between man and God through His shed blood. He also guaranteed the covenant with its better promises. Knowing this, we need to be sure we submit to the terms of the covenant so that we can take advantage of the promises contained in it.

Without Jesus as mediator, one cannot be reconciled to God regardless of how many doors he/she may knock on or how many good works he/she performs. Without Jesus as mediator, there is no one to stand between God and man to advocate or intercede for him. Without Jesus as mediator, you are left without a high priest. Jesus being mediator is a ministry of His high priesthood. Without Jesus as your great high priest, you cannot approach the throne of God in prayer. You cannot have your sins washed away. You cannot be saved!