Is Jesus mediator only for the “anointed class” of JW’s?

[MissKate13]

If true, then WHO mediates for the rest of the Jehovah’s Witnesses?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #174]

All people don’t receive eternal life. Only those who obey the gospel, who are born of water and the Spirit will enter the kingdom of heaven. The rest will end up in the Lake of Fire.

Yet the details of all this is where we differ. There is so much more in the Bible than the 3 sentences you have here.

There isn’t enough space for me to quote from the Bible all there is to say about eternal life and the Lake of Fire. Besides, it’s off topic. Time to get back to the OP question.

Actually you and the Bible are so different on the basics the OP is not something you and I even need to be talking about. It's like watching someone build a house on crooked ground. Because the foundation isn't right the whole house isn't right. We don't even agree on who God is. Why would we even being talking about such an advanced topic? It's pointless.

My differences are with Watchtower, not the Bible.

Again, Watchtower is the name of a magazine. There is no group called Watchtower. It makes you sounds like you don't know what you're talking about when you say these things. The debate is not about your feelings about a magazine. No one cares.

The concept of Christ as mediator is not a difficult one to understand at all. Perhaps Watchtower has made it difficult for its followers in the way they present it, and that may be why you see it as such.

Nope, it is clear as day to me. You can't accept it and that is fine with me. I'm not trying to convince you as your mind is made up. But what you present is not harmonious with the rest of the Bible.

We have the hope of salvation because of Jesus’ work as our mediator. He brought about peace between man and God through His shed blood. He also guaranteed the covenant with its better promises. Knowing this, we need to be sure we submit to the terms of the covenant so that we can take advantage of the promises contained in it.

Going to heaven to rule over the earth is not a better promise to me. “The righteous will possess the earth, and they will live forever on it.” (Psalm 37:11, 29) Note this is from the Bible not a Watchtower magazine. I am looking forward to this promise from the Bible. When you say you're looking forward to a 'better promise' you imply the gift of the life your have now is a bad gift. That's sad if that is how you feel about your current gifts from God.

Without Jesus as mediator, one cannot be reconciled to God regardless of how many doors he/she may knock on or how many good works he/she performs. Without Jesus as mediator, there is no one to stand between God and man to advocate or intercede for him. Without Jesus as mediator, you are left without a high priest. Jesus being mediator is a ministry of His high priesthood. Without Jesus as your great high priest, you cannot approach the throne of God in prayer. You cannot have your sins washed away.

There is no scripture that says that I need a mediator to wash away my sins. What the Bible DOES say is that Jesus' death is what allows the removal of sin.
"For among the first things I handed on to you was what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures." 1 Cor 15:3
Note again, a the Bible says nothing about Christ being a mediator to pay for sins. it is his death. The Bible says this not a magazine. But you don't accept certain Bible scriptures do you?

You still have not presented a scripture in almost any of your posts. You say you know the Bible but you don't quote from it. You need to back up your claims.

[MissKate13]

=2timothy316 post_id=1120463 time=1683121309 user_id=13243]
You still have not presented a scripture in almost any of your posts. You say you know the Bible but you don't quote from it. You need to back up your claims.

Maybe you can clear some things up for me.

Does the anointed class and the great crowd include the Jews of the old covenant according to your governing body?

Who are ”those who are called” in the following Hebrews Chapter 9 passage? Do you believe they are the anointed class, or are they the great crowd?

13 Under the old system, the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer could cleanse people’s bodies from ceremonial impurity. 14 Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. 15 That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

Since you don’t believe Jesus is your mediator, do you also believe He is not your high priest? I ask because according to Hebrews 8, Jesus’ role as mediator is a function of His being High Priest.

6. But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises.

And finally, one last question…
As a member of the great crowd, can you approach the throne of God as the author of Hebrews suggested? Or is this strictly for the anointed class?

19And so, dear brothers and sisters, we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. 20By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place. 21And since we have a great High Priest who rules over God’s house, 22let us go right into the presence of God with sincere hearts fully trusting him. For our guilty consciences have been sprinkled with Christ’s blood to make us clean, and our bodies have been washed with pure water.

[2timothy316]

=2timothy316 post_id=1120463 time=1683121309 user_id=13243]
You still have not presented a scripture in almost any of your posts. You say you know the Bible but you don't quote from it. You need to back up your claims.

Maybe you can clear some things up for me.

I think we need to start more on the fundamentals. Because you keep ignoring something very basic.

Now, lets look at your scriptures. Which btw are:

Hebrews 9:13-15
13 Under the old system, the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer could cleanse people’s bodies from ceremonial impurity. 14 Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. 15 That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

Hebrews 8:6
6. But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises.

Now look closely. Christ is clearly paying for mankind's sins with his death as stated in YOUR BIBLE, "For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.". Do you agree with your own Bible?

If you agree with your Bible, It makes no sense that Christ would need to mediate for sins that are paid for by his death and that are part of the first covenant but not part of the new one. When the Bible clearly says that is a mediator for a covenant. Not for our sins. Verse 15 of Heb 9 states the first covenant is where the sins were committed. The new covenant has nothing to do with sins. is Why you are tying these two things together when they are two separate things?

Until the fundamental truth is agreed upon as what Jesus' death did for mankind there is no reason to discuss anything further. I have used your Bible to boot to prove my point, so if you don't trust your own Bible well then I've got nothing.

[MissKate13]

=2timothy316 post_id=1120463 time=1683121309 user_id=13243]
You still have not presented a scripture in almost any of your posts. You say you know the Bible but you don't quote from it. You need to back up your claims.

Maybe you can clear some things up for me.

I think we need to start more on the fundamentals. Because you keep ignoring something very basic.

Now, lets look at your scriptures. Which btw are:

Hebrews 9:13-15
13 Under the old system, the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer could cleanse people’s bodies from ceremonial impurity. 14 Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. 15 That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

Hebrews 8:6
6. But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises.

Now look closely. Christ is clearly paying for mankind's sins with his death as stated in YOUR BIBLE, "For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.". Do you agree with your own Bible?

If you agree with your Bible, It makes no sense that Christ would need to mediate for sins that are paid for by his death and that are part of the first covenant but not part of the new one. When the Bible clearly says that is a mediator for a covenant. Not for our sins. Verse 15 of Heb 9 states the first covenant is where the sins were committed. The new covenant has nothing to do with sins. is Why you are tying these two things together when they are two separate things?

Until the fundamental truth is agreed upon as what Jesus' death did for mankind there is no reason to discuss anything further. I have used your Bible to boot to prove my point, so if you don't trust your own Bible well then I've got nothing.

There is no my Bible your Bible. There are English translations. The Scriptures are from the Holy Spirit. Not me, and not you.

I’m trying to understand, and I don’t wish to misrepresent you.

Who is the “our” at the end of Hebrews 9:14? Does “our” represent both the anointed class and great crowd? Or is “our” just the anointed class?

Who are the “all who are called?” Are they both the anointed class and the great crowd? Or are they just the anointed class?

13Under the old system, the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer could cleanse people’s bodies from ceremonial impurity. 14Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. 15 That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

I’ll address the other passages after I understand what you are saying. As you said, we need to be clear on the fundamentals.

PS. You don’t need to post snarky comments. I don’t believe they are pleasing to God. Just because we disagree is no reason to be disrespectful.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #184]

We need to first agree on what did Jesus Christ's death do. If we can agree on that or at least your can understand my belief then we can move. You will not understand my side without understanding what I believe Christ's death did.
My answer: Paid the ransom for mankind's sins. As the Bible says, "Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins".
Do you agree or at least understand my belief as to what the death of Christ did for mankind?

Awaiting your answer ...

I only stressed your Bible because the rude watchtower comments you keep dishing out as if my source is different from yours and I was showing my information was coming from your chosen translation of the Bible and not from anywhere else. You keep the snarky comments down, I will as well.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #183]

The new covenant has nothing to do with sins. is Why you are tying these two things together when they are two separate things?

Perhaps because of things like this?

Then He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.


Peace again.

[Eloi]

The mediator of the covenant of the Law was not Aaron, the high priest, but Moses. Jesus does not act as a mediator of the new covenant by virtue of being a high priest. The new covenant is with the underpriests, and the sacrifice of Jesus acts in favor of those who benefit from that arrangement.

As said before:

Due to the sin of our first human parents, all mankind is in a defective state in which it is impossible to have a direct relationship with Jehovah, who is Holy. Because of that, a payment was necessary that would act first on a group of people who will act as priests and help the imperfect survivors to reach that perfect state that had been lost.

Since these underpriests are also imperfect, they had to be sanctified first, in order to later be able to help the rest of humanity to reach that perfection. For this reason, Jesus is mediator first of that small group, and through them the rest of the earthly survivors will reach perfection through a work carried out by those others from heaven during the first Millennium of the Kingdom of Christ.

It is similar to the sacrifice that Aaron or the acting high priest had to make for the rest of the Levite priests, BEFORE performing another rite on behalf of the rest of Israel. The high priest had to be sanctified first, then sanctify the other priests, and thus all the priests were relatively well disposed to serve the entire nation.

Lev. 9:7 Then Moses said to Aaron: “Approach the altar and present your sin offering and your burnt offering, and make atonement in your own behalf and in behalf of your house; and present the offering of the people, and make atonement in their behalf, just as Jehovah has commanded.”
... 16:6 “Aaron must then present the bull of the sin offering, which is for himself, and he will make atonement in behalf of himself and his house.

Christ's brothers will be in heaven with him during the Millennium, and while the survivors and resurrected after the Great Tribulation still have to be tested, already Christ's underpriests will be immortal. In order for them to receive their inheritance first, they must be sanctified firstly (Rev. 20:6).

You cannot confuse

1) being part of a covenant and
2) being a beneficiary of that arrangement.

For example, although Daniel (Dan. 12:13) and John the Baptist (Matt. 11:11) are not part of the new covenant, they will live forever on earth because they also benefit from God's arrangement for the kingdom that includes the shedding of Jesus' blood for people who have lived at any stage of humanity and even if they are not part of the new covenant ... Daniel and John the Baptist will not be kings nor priests on heaven, but they will be on earth and they will enjoy the blessings of the kingdom from those who God chose to reign.

In the same way that Daniel and John the Baptist, and millions of other servants of God are not part of the new covenant, so many Christians are not part of that covenant, although they will benefit from that arrangement like the other ones.

Phil. 3:10 My aim is to know him and the power of his resurrection and to share in his sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, 11 to see if at all possible I may attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead.

In the first century all Christians were anointed with spirit. The mighty works and miracles through them proved it.

1 Pet. 1:10 Concerning this very salvation a diligent inquiry and a careful search were made by the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for YOU. 11 They kept on investigating what particular season or what sort of [season] the spirit in them was indicating concerning Christ when it was bearing witness beforehand about the sufferings for Christ and about the glories to follow these. 12 It was revealed to them that, not to themselves, but to YOU, they were ministering the things that have now been announced to YOU through those who have declared the good news to YOU with holy spirit sent forth from heaven. Into these very things angels are desiring to peer.

Today there are not many Christians who are anointed, so it is presumptuous to say that the words addressed to those anointed can apply to any "Christian" today. They lived in a special stage of calling that dwindled until the number of anointed was complete. Many millions of people will benefit from God's arrangement for the kingdom.

[2timothy316]

The mediator of the covenant of the Law was not Aaron, the high priest, but Moses. Jesus does not act as a mediator of the new covenant by virtue of being a high priest. The new covenant is with the underpriests, and the sacrifice of Jesus acts in favor of those who benefit from that arrangement.

As said before:

Due to the sin of our first human parents, all mankind is in a defective state in which it is impossible to have a direct relationship with Jehovah, who is Holy. Because of that, a payment was necessary that would act first on a group of people who will act as priests and help the imperfect survivors to reach that perfect state that had been lost.

Since these underpriests are also imperfect, they had to be sanctified first, in order to later be able to help the rest of humanity to reach that perfection. For this reason, Jesus is mediator first of that small group, and through them the rest of the earthly survivors will reach perfection through a work carried out by those others from heaven during the first Millennium of the Kingdom of Christ.

It is similar to the sacrifice that Aaron or the acting high priest had to make for the rest of the Levite priests, BEFORE performing another rite on behalf of the rest of Israel. The high priest had to be sanctified first, then sanctify the other priests, and thus all the priests were relatively well disposed to serve the entire nation.

Lev. 9:7 Then Moses said to Aaron: “Approach the altar and present your sin offering and your burnt offering, and make atonement in your own behalf and in behalf of your house; and present the offering of the people, and make atonement in their behalf, just as Jehovah has commanded.”
... 16:6 “Aaron must then present the bull of the sin offering, which is for himself, and he will make atonement in behalf of himself and his house.

Christ's brothers will be in heaven with him during the Millennium, and while the survivors and resurrected after the Great Tribulation still have to be tested, already Christ's underpriests will be immortal. In order for them to receive their inheritance first, they must be sanctified firstly (Rev. 20:6).

You cannot confuse

1) being part of a covenant and
2) being a beneficiary of that arrangement.

There is also confusion as to what did Jesus Christ's death do for mankind. The author of the OP thinks that Jesus is a mediator for our sins. However, that is not what pays for our sins according to the Bible. I feel this is the root of the whole thread question. The author of the OP thinks that anyone that doesn't have Jesus as their mediator is not clear of their sins. Until this knot is undone answering the OP question will not make sense because the understanding of what the New Covenant is and isn't must to be addressed first. The New Covenant doesn't cover paying for mankind's sins. That is what Jesus' sacrifice was for.

[MissKate13]

We need to first agree on what did Jesus Christ's death do. If we can agree on that or at least your can understand my belief then we can move. You will not understand my side without understanding what I believe Christ's death did.
My answer: Paid the ransom for mankind's sins. As the Bible says, "Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins".
Do you agree or at least understand my belief as to what the death of Christ did for mankind?

Romans 5 tells us what Jesus’ death accomplished. In a nutshell, Jesus paid the ransom for mankind’s sins.

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Now would you please answer my questions?


Does the anointed class and the great crowd include the Jews of the old covenant according to your governing body?

Who are ”those who are called” in the following Hebrews Chapter 9 passage? Do you believe they are the anointed class, or are they the great crowd?

13 Under the old system, the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer could cleanse people’s bodies from ceremonial impurity. 14 Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. 15 That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

Since you don’t believe Jesus is your mediator, do you also believe He is not your high priest? I ask because according to Hebrews 8, Jesus’ role as mediator is a function of His being High Priest.

6. But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises.

And finally, one last question…
As a member of the great crowd, can you approach the throne of God as the author of Hebrews suggested? Or is this strictly for the anointed class?

19And so, dear brothers and sisters, we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. 20By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place. 21And since we have a great High Priest who rules over God’s house, 22let us go right into the presence of God with sincere hearts fully trusting him. For our guilty consciences have been sprinkled with Christ’s blood to make us clean, and our bodies have been washed with pure water.

[2timothy316]

We need to first agree on what did Jesus Christ's death do. If we can agree on that or at least your can understand my belief then we can move. You will not understand my side without understanding what I believe Christ's death did.
My answer: Paid the ransom for mankind's sins. As the Bible says, "Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins".
Do you agree or at least understand my belief as to what the death of Christ did for mankind?

Romans 5 tells us what Jesus’ death accomplished.

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Yes that is what I believe as well.
However, this passage says nothing about Jesus needing to be a mediator for our sins as well nor does it say that we need to be part of a covenant to have our sins expunged. Do you see that it is his death, and not a covenant with him as our mediator, that mankind receives reconciliation?