The Exodus! Did it Really Happen?

[POI]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

[TRANSPONDER]

I'm not asking for book recommendations. This is a debate forum. Please provide the evidence(s) which support the Exodus claim? We are not going to do your homework for you.

Sorry, I don't have the book right now. But, maybe I can give some of the evidence later this week.

Wait! You claim to have evidence then admit that you don't? This is one of the most amusing claims I've ever read here. It's like being in 3rd grade and having a fellow student claim their dog ate their homework. Oh boy!


Tcg

It's a grubbly old ploy to throw links to other bible apologetics books and sites at us, which is why the Rule was developed: "Make you case here - don';t tell me to go do your work for you".

I reckon I already saw it, but it is just trying to fiddle the Exodus into what is known of Egyptian history. But, as i said, the Bible account places it after all those famous Pharaohs. From what I saw, that Bible apologetics book is dead in the water.

What still astonishes me is how little attention Bible apologists pay to the Bible critic arguments. I remember many of the arguments put by opponents - the Tempest scroll, the Hyksos cylinder - seal, Joseph as advisor to Amenhotep III , the calf - altar, Ramesses IInd's eldest son died and never mid denial of the date of the settlement of the Philistines and dismissal of Rameses IIIrd's inscription as 'Hearsay'.

But no matter how often I post it:

Ramesses II builds his capital (Lots of brick - making )

Merneptah invades Canaan and 'destroys Israel's seed'

Ramesses IIIrd defeats the sea people - some (Pelestet) settled in Gaza as the Philistines; Helladic III -type pottery and I believe DNA supports the Philistines as the Sea peoples of the 12th -11th c BC)
Time of the supposed exodus which avoids the Philistines.

The Bible apologist posters never saw that? Well, never mind, it'll take forever before anyone sees it, let alone remembers it.

[POI]

Okay Christians, the debate topic is quite simple. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence for an Exodus? Scoffers say we do not really have much, if any, evidence at all to support such a claim. Maybe since no Christian is interested enough to apply evidence(s) in the conventional format presented in the countless of other threads posited in this arena, maybe a video will instead spark some debate/exchange?.?.?.?. This dude says the following:



1. Does evidence(s) exist, outside the mere say-so of the Bible?
2. If not, does this even matter to you Christians?

[TRANSPONDER]

Okay Christians, the debate topic is quite simple. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence for an Exodus? Scoffers say we do not really have much, if any, evidence at all to support such a claim. Maybe since no Christian is interested enough to apply evidence(s) in the conventional format presented in the countless of other threads posited in this arena, maybe a video will instead spark some debate/exchange?.?.?.?. This dude says the following:



1. Does evidence(s) exist, outside the mere say-so of the Bible?
2. If not, does this even matter to you Christians?

They try to make it exist.That is what Biblical archaeology is so often about. A classic example is the walls of Jericho, collapsed. Originally hailed as archaeological proof of the Bible. But later on Kathleen Kenyon's work showed the collapse was normal deterioration and they weren't the right date anyway.

The apologist has two options: dismiss that evidence as 'opinion' (science dismissal, good, old) or to say 'That might be wrong, but the rest of the Bible is right'. I needn't go into pseudo archaeology like Wyatt's Read Sea nonsense or a video on the pool of Siloam as possibly incredibly cool that the place John had heard of and maybe even knew of is being excavated, or is supposed to be proof that the Bible is true. It's doubtful, because John puts that event in Jerusalem (where he evidently had a tour guide (1) while the Synoptics have the story in Galilee. Biblical archaeology is pretty much irrelevant where it isn't actually dodgy. The Durupinar Ark is pseudo - science rather than dodgy even. And NAMI was a fake and scam even beyond what we skeptics thought it was. And yet how the faithful fought for it. Just as they fought for the James sarcophagus,the Jebl Laws site and the existence of 1st c Nazareth.

Well so they did for the Talpiot tom until they twigged that if those were the bones of Jesus, that proved he didn't rise from the dead. My ears have never fully recovered from the resultant deafening silence. And there has never been anything BUT silence to the proof that the Tombs in Jerusalem can't be the tomb of Jesus nor the via Dolorosa the route Jesus took to crucifixion. Evidence has never been the problem. Fingers stuffed in the ears has been the problem.

(1) "Yes sir, yes sir, this is gabattha pavement; actual place where your Jesus stood while being trialed. You may buy nail from the very sandal Jesus wore at my brother's souvenir shop just here, sir..."

[1213]

I'm not asking for book recommendations. This is a debate forum. Please provide the evidence(s) which support the Exodus claim? We are not going to do your homework for you.

Sorry, I don't have the book right now. But, maybe I can give some of the evidence later this week.

Aces

I shall patiently await this evidence

Möller's book shows nicely connections between Imhotep and Joseph, and Moses and Senmut.

Imhotep allegedly planed Saqqara step pyramid, which has interesting details allegedly. For example depictions of famine, that fits to the Biblical story of the famine during the time Joseph was in Egypt. There has been found traces of grain, which suggests that the Saqqara buildings had grain storages. Support for the story of 7 year famine can be found from the Joseph Stone, that describes similar famine as the Bible, apparently only 7 year famine in Egypt's history. So, there is connection to the famine story in two ways, but, is there evidence that Joseph was also called Imhotep? What links Imhotep and Joseph is the inscription on the island of Shiel below the first Cataracts of the Nile. The inscription has many similarities with Genesis text about Joseph in Egypt. Obviously the names are different, but the issues look the same. And that is evidence for that Joseph may have been in Egypt.

Reason why Senmut can be seen as Moses is that they are in many ways the same. Similar history, background, lost the position and disappeared his monuments were vandalized.

The Brooklyn papyrus is one evidence for Hebrew slaves in the Egypt.

Interesting thing is also, Bible tells Joseph embalmed his father to transfer him back to homeland. And if Joseph was regarded as god in Egypt, it could have started the whole embalming habit there, because people could have though it is the way to go. This is why the practice itself can be seen as evidence for the story.

These connections are evidence for that Jews were probably in Egypt and Joseph and Moses were historical.

But, if Exodus is not true, where do you think Jews came from?

[TRANSPONDER]

I'm not asking for book recommendations. This is a debate forum. Please provide the evidence(s) which support the Exodus claim? We are not going to do your homework for you.

Sorry, I don't have the book right now. But, maybe I can give some of the evidence later this week.

Aces

I shall patiently await this evidence

Möller's book shows nicely connections between Imhotep and Joseph, and Moses and Senmut.

Imhotep allegedly planed Saqqara step pyramid, which has interesting details allegedly. For example depictions of famine, that fits to the Biblical story of the famine during the time Joseph was in Egypt. There has been found traces of grain, which suggests that the Saqqara buildings had grain storages. Support for the story of 7 year famine can be found from the Joseph Stone, that describes similar famine as the Bible, apparently only 7 year famine in Egypt's history. So, there is connection to the famine story in two ways, but, is there evidence that Joseph was also called Imhotep? What links Imhotep and Joseph is the inscription on the island of Shiel below the first Cataracts of the Nile. The inscription has many similarities with Genesis text about Joseph in Egypt. Obviously the names are different, but the issues look the same. And that is evidence for that Joseph may have been in Egypt.

Reason why Senmut can be seen as Moses is that they are in many ways the same. Similar history, background, lost the position and disappeared his monuments were vandalized.

The Brooklyn papyrus is one evidence for Hebrew slaves in the Egypt.

Interesting thing is also, Bible tells Joseph embalmed his father to transfer him back to homeland. And if Joseph was regarded as god in Egypt, it could have started the whole embalming habit there, because people could have though it is the way to go. This is why the practice itself can be seen as evidence for the story.

These connections are evidence for that Jews were probably in Egypt and Joseph and Moses were historical.

But, if Exodus is not true, where do you think Jews came from?

I find it improbable that Djoser, the step pyramid or Imhotep had anything to do with the exodus even if there is any truth to the story. They are 3rd dynasty 27th c B.C .There had been two dynasties of civil and architectural development before and separate civil advance before the two lands were unified. Smart advisors would have existed and the idea of storing grain against shortages was a thing all through Egypt. You can pick any time and fit the exodus to it. Imhotep gets picked ashe is an advisor outstandingly respected by the Pharaoh. It's just too easy.

I still say that the Bible places the Exodus after the 12th c BC. The Brooklyn papyrus (a work on medicine) is even later dated 450 BC. How does that have anything to do with hebrew slaves or the exodus?

[1213]

...The Brooklyn papyrus (a work on medicine) is even later dated 450 BC. How does that have anything to do with hebrew slaves or the exodus?

It is possible that the papyrus has been dated wrongly. But, it is about Hebrew slaves, because by what I know, the papyrus tells about foreign slaves with Hebrew names.

[POI]

I'm not asking for book recommendations. This is a debate forum. Please provide the evidence(s) which support the Exodus claim? We are not going to do your homework for you.

Sorry, I don't have the book right now. But, maybe I can give some of the evidence later this week.

Aces

I shall patiently await this evidence

Möller's book shows nicely connections between Imhotep and Joseph, and Moses and Senmut.

Imhotep allegedly planed Saqqara step pyramid, which has interesting details allegedly. For example depictions of famine, that fits to the Biblical story of the famine during the time Joseph was in Egypt. There has been found traces of grain, which suggests that the Saqqara buildings had grain storages. Support for the story of 7 year famine can be found from the Joseph Stone, that describes similar famine as the Bible, apparently only 7 year famine in Egypt's history. So, there is connection to the famine story in two ways, but, is there evidence that Joseph was also called Imhotep? What links Imhotep and Joseph is the inscription on the island of Shiel below the first Cataracts of the Nile. The inscription has many similarities with Genesis text about Joseph in Egypt. Obviously the names are different, but the issues look the same. And that is evidence for that Joseph may have been in Egypt.

Reason why Senmut can be seen as Moses is that they are in many ways the same. Similar history, background, lost the position and disappeared his monuments were vandalized.

The Brooklyn papyrus is one evidence for Hebrew slaves in the Egypt.

Interesting thing is also, Bible tells Joseph embalmed his father to transfer him back to homeland. And if Joseph was regarded as god in Egypt, it could have started the whole embalming habit there, because people could have though it is the way to go. This is why the practice itself can be seen as evidence for the story.

These connections are evidence for that Jews were probably in Egypt and Joseph and Moses were historical.

But, if Exodus is not true, where do you think Jews came from?

As I told another, in another thread, this is a large claim. Meaning, the claim is that millions of people inhabited an area, were enslaved for a long time, and then travelled from point A to point B over a 40 year period. And yet, outside the claims of the Bible, we have a severe lack in evidence that such events took place. So when I ask you for evidence to support such an extraordinary claim, THIS is what you provide? Really? Maybe start with the given video I provided (post #12), which, in a nutshell, states that if such events happened in history, then why the extreme ABSENCE of evidence for the claim(s)?

[TRANSPONDER]

...The Brooklyn papyrus (a work on medicine) is even later dated 450 BC. How does that have anything to do with hebrew slaves or the exodus?

It is possible that the papyrus has been dated wrongly. But, it is about Hebrew slaves, because by what I know, the papyrus tells about foreign slaves with Hebrew names.

You are dismissing the dating on Faith not knowledge. My understanding is that the evolution of writing styles are known and datable, and you cannot dismiss a 2000 plus year dating difference just like it didn't exist. Further, supposing this material could be dated to before the appearance of Israel 11th/12th c BC., Hebrew sounding names need not be hebrew people but Caananite with Hebrews borrowing the names. This could be a Biblefaith -based reversal of the material, like Canaanirte script from which Hebrew was derived is claimed as 'proto Hebrew' and even as evidence for the Exodus.

Further, even if there were hebrew slaves in Egypt of some date that is wangled to fit with an Exodus - theory (whether Djozer, Amenhotep II or Ramesses II when the Bible itself puts it later than any of them) with dating dismissed as airily as an inscription of Ramesses III was dismissed as Hearsay ("Infamous" ) there is the problem that despite efforts to fiddle evidence into the Bible (1).Finally Egypt is silent on any large scale Hebrew slavery in Egypt. Nubians, Lybians, Syrians, yes. But nothing notably Hebrew. They used only Hebrews as an enslaved tribal identity (never mind that some apologists reckon they had 12 tribes already) in slave industry when they had a large number of other captives to use and on evidence used a paid or at least provisioned, labour force anyway.

The lack of any real evidence for the Hebrew people being slaves in Egypt is a point, and the excuse that it was hushed up doesn't wash as even attempts to scrub out people from Egyptian history such as Hatshepsut and Akhenaten failed, plus the social and logistical improbability and the clear evidence of anachronism with it wabbling between the Hebrews as God - worshippers and a people who knew nothing about it and had to be given the rites means that whatever you believe, I cannot buy the Biblical story even without the evidence that it is post Philistine - 12th /11th c BC at the earliest

Usual bottom line. It is not about what you believe or I believe but what case can be put to the browser. I don't doubt that taking Imhotep, Ahmose and 5th c BC papyrus and wadding them together like they were the same date can make a convincing - looking case for the unwary, but I reckon explaining the centuries that separate these events make it untenable and not everyone will dismiss Egyptian dating as easily as you do.

(1) the tempest stele (not Papyrus, as I said) just refers to Ahmose putting Egypt to rights after a tempest which may be symbolic of the supposed ravages of the Hyksos anyway. It is hardly aligned with any of the exodus plagues.

[TRANSPONDER]

Ok I'm a naughty boy But i have posted a lot on the subject and after a mass of online Bible propaganda, this is one that puts both sides (though debunking from the skeptical side) that at least says what arguments there are and aren't.


There's a fair amount of excusing why there isn't evidence rather than showing that there is. A classic biased standpoint. The problems with opting for this or that Pharaoh is that the chronology and events of the reign don't fit the story. The mention of Ramesses' capital having to exist before it was built is vaguely waved away with making up some excuses that we don't actually hear. you don't get a capital named after someone who hasn't become Pharaoh yet.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

It doesn't matter to me if the story is a story of it is history or a mix of the two. Either way, I learn the same lessons for the story.

As far as evidence, there is this view - https://archive.org/details/patterns-of-evidence-exodus