Did Jesus Care About Leaving Evidence?

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Did Jesus Care About Leaving Evidence?

Post #1

Post by POI »

As the title suggests, did Jesus even care if he left behind sufficient evidence for his risen self?

Seems as though we have a potential 'dichotomy' going here.... (either/or)?

For Debate:

A) Was Jesus pleased with the evidence he left behind, as suitable for belief in him?
B) Or, did he maybe instead want to leave the evidence lacking, sketchy, and/or easily dismissible/debatable, in favor of faith?
c) Third, fourth, fifth options are welcome?

Please explain your rationale. Thank you!
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Re: Did Jesus Care About Leaving Evidence?

Post #11

Post by TRANSPONDER »

This "sufficient" evidence is a real crafty one. I THINK (discussion invited) that it translates as 'It is no proof but it fits". We already saw how the Exodus with some wangling and mangling could be fitted into Egyptian history, if you didn't look too deep.Thus Egyptology thought being "Sufficient evidence" for the Exodus magically becomes "History supports the Bible". So I seem to recall that Kalam was called "Sufficient evidence" for God, which of course it isn't, but the argument can be wangled and tangled soit looks like it enough to hopefully fool those unaware. I reckon that's the idea.

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Re: Did Jesus Care About Leaving Evidence?

Post #12

Post by POI »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 2:17 pm
POI wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 12:35 pm
1213 wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 6:17 am
POI wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 10:10 pm As the title suggests, did Jesus even care if he left behind sufficient evidence for his risen self?
...
He left his words that still remain after 2000 years. I don't think we could have a better evidence.
This does not address the question. Does Jesus feel he left sufficient evidence for anyone to believe he rose from a grave? If so, why do so many not feel there exists sufficient evidence to believe this claim?
I suppose, if I wore my theist hat, I'd say "You can't leave obvious proof, otherwise you would have no value in having Faith".
Yea, this is where theists may want their cake, and eat it too. Meaning, they will fight tooth and nail, in debating a resurrection claim, in sighting evidence. Well, you can't have both. Meaning, the less evidence you have, the more faith is required in its place. And vise visa; the more evidence you have, the less faith is required in its place. What is the magic recipe for evidence/faith, is it 50/50, other? You read parts of the Bible which suggest more faith is rewarded (i.e.)

"Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.

Theists, what is the recipe, 70/30 ( 70% having faith / 30% being convinced by evidence), other?.?.?.?.?.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Did Jesus Care About Leaving Evidence?

Post #13

Post by JoeyKnothead »

POI wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 3:55 pm Theists, what is the recipe, 70/30 ( 70% having faith / 30% being convinced by evidence), other?.?.?.?.?.
I'm curious to know what role, and to what extent, gullibility might come into play. This ain't to just knock on theists, because the accusation also implies how it might affect my own beliefs.

I bring this up in light of how folks can be so dismissive of what are well established facts. Not the particulars necessarily, but 'core' facts.

Then I hear about how the resurrection is so full of facts, and I just don't see it.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: Did Jesus Care About Leaving Evidence?

Post #14

Post by TRANSPONDER »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 4:03 pm
POI wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 3:55 pm Theists, what is the recipe, 70/30 ( 70% having faith / 30% being convinced by evidence), other?.?.?.?.?.
I'm curious to know what role, and to what extent, gullibility might come into play. This ain't to just knock on theists, because the accusation also implies how it might affect my own beliefs.

I bring this up in light of how folks can be so dismissive of what are well established facts. Not the particulars necessarily, but 'core' facts.

Then I hear about how the resurrection is so full of facts, and I just don't see it.
There's an element of skepticism about what one is told, especially if it doesn't accord with perception.Yet we have a sort of trust in authority, which we sometimes get shocked to find is misplaced.

But the degree of science - skepticism that seems endemic in America does not seem to be the case in Europe. I suspect it is because there was no state church and religions were allowed to go their own way.

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Re: Did Jesus Care About Leaving Evidence?

Post #15

Post by JoeyKnothead »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 5:03 am There's an element of skepticism about what one is told, especially if it doesn't accord with perception.Yet we have a sort of trust in authority, which we sometimes get shocked to find is misplaced.
Shocked ain't the half of it :wave:
But the degree of science - skepticism that seems endemic in America does not seem to be the case in Europe. I suspect it is because there was no state church and religions were allowed to go their own way.
Oh, there's "state churches", if only they don't hold as much sway as before, or have managed to muddy that pond.

Folks get told the tale of how the Pilgrims came to Murica seeking religious freedom. What they don't get told is it was so they could practice their own brand of persecution.

Where there's leaders who hold their faith above their nation's people, we have a theocracy only limited by that leader's inability to impose their beliefs on others.

We can see this in states where Christian leaders have taken it upon themselves to go after folks based on their sexual identity. The Christian religion only recognizes folks by them having an innie, or an outtie, and not what their brain (heart) tells them. Thus, any talk of folks being icky and the religio-political knives are drawn.

Jesus left plenty of evidence regarding just how nasty his promoters can be.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Did Jesus Care About Leaving Evidence?

Post #16

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Yes. My interest in History, Ancient History and Military history, as well as being involved in the religion debate made me aware that while Religion is just one of many Dogmas that people will go to war over, from the Thirty years (religious) wars to the Tai Ping rebellion and the Muhammad Jihad to the Dogma wars of the WWII and the Crusades and conquest of the new Word (1) to the cold war and World WarIII which we never had thanks (ironically) to the Bomb, it is not the only thing that bedevils human society.Though it will get its fiddly fingers into it if you allow it.

I could get deeper into the unhealthy relation between religion and politics but I prefer to stay out of it, even though not living in the US gives me a nicely uncluttered view.

(1) I wonder how long it would have taken before the Aztecs had given up human sacrifice "Teddy Roosevelt..."Lookee here, chief, you either stop cuttin' folks up on them alters, or we come down there and make you"

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Re: Did Jesus Care About Leaving Evidence?

Post #17

Post by benchwarmer »

POI wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 3:55 pm
"Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.
Honestly this line is a massive red flag that we are dealing with an early apologist and not words of a risen savior. It's trying to make is sound like people who stop questioning and "just believe" are the truly special and blessed ones. In other words, it seems like an addition to the story to ward off too many questions. It's actually quite crafty, but also IMHO quite cringy. Preying on gullibility rather than inviting critical thinking and evidence.

If Jesus actually cared about convincing any particular person, He can obviously just do it at any time. He's supposedly still alive and able to converse with people right? Right?? No need to leave a stale trail of evidence, just provide it anew whenever needed. Should be easy peasy. Right?

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Re: Did Jesus Care About Leaving Evidence?

Post #18

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 12:35 pm
1213 wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 6:17 am
POI wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 10:10 pm As the title suggests, did Jesus even care if he left behind sufficient evidence for his risen self?
...
He left his words that still remain after 2000 years. I don't think we could have a better evidence.
This does not address the question. Does Jesus feel he left sufficient evidence for anyone to believe he rose from a grave? If so, why do so many not feel there exists sufficient evidence to believe this claim?
Ok, I can't answer for Jesus, you have to ask that directly from him, how does he feel.

I believe he feels he left sufficient evidence.

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Re: Did Jesus Care About Leaving Evidence?

Post #19

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 7:27 am
POI wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 12:35 pm
1213 wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 6:17 am
POI wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 10:10 pm As the title suggests, did Jesus even care if he left behind sufficient evidence for his risen self?
...
He left his words that still remain after 2000 years. I don't think we could have a better evidence.
This does not address the question. Does Jesus feel he left sufficient evidence for anyone to believe he rose from a grave? If so, why do so many not feel there exists sufficient evidence to believe this claim?
Ok, I can't answer for Jesus, you have to ask that directly from him, how does he feel.

I believe he feels he left sufficient evidence.
Christians interpret what they think Jesus means all the time, including you. One of your interpretations is that Jesus wants you to be righteous. This should be an easy layup for you. Here, let's try a different approach. Did he:

a) feel the Bible left very clear evidence, where no doubt would be the case?
b) intentionally leave it open for debate, so people can come to him instead by faith, because he values the faithful more?

Sounds like you are going with a)? I'm asking you, because he does not talk to me. Or if he does, I do not notice. Please tell me what he tells you here.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Did Jesus Care About Leaving Evidence?

Post #20

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 7:27 am
POI wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 12:35 pm
1213 wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 6:17 am
POI wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 10:10 pm As the title suggests, did Jesus even care if he left behind sufficient evidence for his risen self?
...
He left his words that still remain after 2000 years. I don't think we could have a better evidence.
This does not address the question. Does Jesus feel he left sufficient evidence for anyone to believe he rose from a grave? If so, why do so many not feel there exists sufficient evidence to believe this claim?
Ok, I can't answer for Jesus, you have to ask that directly from him, how does he feel.

I believe he feels he left sufficient evidence.
The gospels left sufficient evidence...to show that Jesus never said any such thing. The whole Doubting Thomas thing was made up to make just this point - that Thomas doubted and Jesus proved his resurrection to him, and that ought to be good enough for everyone else. How do we know it isn't true? Because Luke records the evening appearances, and there is no such event, then or later. In fact he says all eleven (less Judas) were there.

So apart from this being twisted and illogical advice (and apart from Matthew and Mark having no such records of Jesus making evening appearances) you could take relief in not having to believe Jesus giving such bad advice counter to all rational argument and standards of valid evidence. Or you can just deny everything, including what the Bible says, and stick with what you prefer to believe.

Cue the excuses.

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