Christians, Does Sin Have a Ranking System?

[POI]

For Debate:

1) When is it okay, verses not okay, for a Christian to intervene, when they feel they can actually stop others from assisting in "sin"?

2) Allow me to explain. Let's say a large company was also demonstrated to be involved in some level of sex trafficking. If the church was to protest against this company, would any of you Christians have a problem with it? I doubt it. So why in the heck wouldn't all of you Christians also have a problem, when Disney decided to apply benefits for gay partners? I mean, is God for or against gay sex, like God is apparently also against sex trafficking? Is gay sex no longer enough of a reason to protest, or to try and intervene in some kind of way?

3) Christians, where EXACTLY does gay sex stack up, as compared to sex trafficking?

*************************************************************

For reference, this thread was created, as not to derail another thread. Here is the Christian's statement (which I find commendable):

"You are absolutely correct, and I am on record on several different sites attempting to combat this very thing. I have not posted on this site in a good number of months because I have been dedicating my time in order to speak out against Christians who want to enforce their beliefs upon the culture. In fact, all the way back in the 90's when Disney decided to cover the partners of their employees who were gay on insurance, there were a good number of denominations who were calling for a public boycott. The denomination I was a member of brought to the floor a motion to send a letter of protest to Disney in response. I stood up on the floor of this statewide conference and ask the question, "what do we have to do with Disney"? My stance is, the Church should have never been involved in what is called the "culture wars". It was the Church who started the culture wars, and it was the Church who started "cancel culture" and now we are upset that those opposed are using the same exact tactics, and doing a far better job, and the reason for this is that the Church was never called to fight a culture war. My position is, not only would the Church be better off if it minded it's own business, but so would the culture. If the Church would have minded, it's own business then there would be no reason for those outside the Church to be opposed. In other words, I have no problem with what it is you believe, no matter how insane I may think it to be, as long as you are not attempting to force your beliefs upon me, and the same should go for the Church as long as it minds it's business. The point here is, bringing this up to me is a waste of time because you and I are on the same page.

As I have said, I have been at this for several months now, and it all started when I was invited to a book study at a local Presbyterian Church. I was handed the book, and began to read, and I could not believe what I was reading. I could not make it past the 3rd chapter, at which point I began to dig in and study this movement. I am here to tell you, everyone needs to sit up and pay attention to what is being called "Christian nationalism" and you need to get familiar with the terms, theonomy, and theocracy. At any rate, if one is interested, they need to go to the "Straight White American Jesus" podcast and look up the "Charismatic Revival Fury" series. It is extremely long with a number of episodes, but I am convinced it is worth the time. I will also point out that since I am so involved in this fight against fellow Christians I may not have a whole lot of time left to respond on this site but will do my best."

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

According to the Catholic church, yes, sin does have a ranking system:

The Gravity of Sin: Mortal and Venial Sin
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM

However, the Bible (at least in this spot) considers it all to be 'equal' in that any sin makes you guilty of all of it.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

A dive into the Catholic concept of "Indulgences" is also quite enlightening.

I think from the earliest moral codes degrees of bad were recognised. I wonder where lying for Jesus comes on the religious one?

Originally ANY lie was a sin but... "in 1997, when the catechism was revised and the official Latin text was published, the part about “the right to know” was dropped and the text now says simply, “to lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error.”

So saying a porkie to get someone into Faith or to keep them in it, would be classed as an acceptable to lie to lead someone to the Truth (1) or to keep them there, that is to quell doubts and questions, would not be a sin. That is of course further qualified by whether the person reporting the untruth believes it. In which case it is a sin for the person who first told it, knowing it wasn't true.

(1) translates as "Faith"

[bjs1]

All sin is equal in the sense that all sin comes from the same place of selfishness in the human soul that takes what is good and twists it into what is not good. However, while all sin comes from the same sinful nature, this does not mean that every action is equal. Gossip and murder both break the law of God, but murder is a far worse trespass. Just like nearly all legal systems, any violation of the law is a crime, but some crimes are more serious than others.

Okay, so some sin is 'worse' than others? IS there an official order? Does the Bible tell us what this order is? If so, where?

Yes, some sins are “worse” than others. There is no official list, nor do I think that one could exist. The severity of sin can depend on the context. To punch someone in the nose out of a sudden rage is a sin, but to plot out punching someone because of spite and hatred is far worse. It is not as simple as “this is always worse than that.”

The catch, I suppose, is that God’s laws are about the state of our souls, so any sin that darkens our souls can have a deadly effect.

Wouldn't all sin further "darken" your soul?

Yes, that was my point. Some sins are worse than others, but all sin darkens our souls and is self-destructive.

1) When is it okay, verses not okay, for a Christian to intervene, when they feel they can actually stop others from assisting in "sin"?

I don’t know that there is a universal Christian rule here, but I would suggest that a Christian should intervene whenever he can do so in a good way (instead of giving in to evil himself), and he can be reasonably confident that his intervention will have a net positive effect.

So intervening, by protest, for Disney to stop providing healthcare for a Disney employee's gay partner is warranted/commendable, or not?

Again, that seems more like a culture war issue than an ethical choice. The motivation would matter, but the act itself seems neither good nor bad.

2) Allow me to explain. Let's say a large company was also demonstrated to be involved in some level of sex trafficking. If the church was to protest against this company, would any of you Christians have a problem with it? I doubt it. So why in the heck wouldn't all of you Christians also have a problem, when Disney decided to apply benefits for gay partners? I mean, is God for or against gay sex, like God is apparently also against sex trafficking? Is gay sex no longer enough of a reason to protest, or to try and intervene in some kind of way?

I’m not sure that Disney has committed any sin here. The company itself is not having sexual relationships with anyone. The company itself is not having sexual relationships with anyone. Nor does it appear to be profiting for anyone’s sexual relationship. One could argue that it is supporting relationships that go against traditional Christin values, but that seems more like a culture wars issue than an ethical one. Beyond that, it is hard for me to oppose compassion of any kind, no matter whom it is shown to.

If someone doesn’t want to support a company because it promotes homosexuality that is their choice, but it seems more like a personal preference than a moral stand. I can see little comparison between providing employment benefits and profiting from creating suffering (such as in sex trafficking).

I see rationalization here. God speaks about same sex activity as being an abomination. I would imagine sex trafficking is an abomination too, right? I will now add more specifics to the direct analogy above.

A) Disney knowingly issues healthcare to employee's partners, who also commit same sex practices in their private affairs.

B) Disney knowingly issues healthcare to employee's partners, who also commit sex trafficking practices in their private affairs.

You are rationalizing A), while B) would just be 'wrong'. If God thinks A) is also an abomination, why don't you?

I can understand how this makes sense from some atheist views on morality. However, what you describe is fundamentally against Christianity. To deny kindness or benefit to someone because they do what is wrong is the definition of being judgmental. There is quite a lot in the Christian scriptures and doctrine which opposes this. If an employer (Disney or any other employer) knew that an employ was actively involved in sex trafficking and did not report it to the authorities, then that would be terrible a sin. But to use any sin as an excuse to deny compassion to a person goes against the fundament nature of Christ. Again, I get how this could make sense from an atheist point of view, but it cannot be called Christian in any manner.

3) Christians, where EXACTLY does gay sex stack up, as compared to sex trafficking?

Sex trafficking is way, way more serious than gay sex. In sex trafficking the sin isn’t even sex. The sin is domination, abuse, and cruelty to another person.

Purely sexual sins – sins that involve a sexual relationship outside of one man and one woman in marriage – get a lot of press because we live in a sex obsessed world. However, on their own they are far from the heart of Christian ethics. Sins of the flesh are bad, but they are the least bad of all sins. The worst sins are spiritual. It is things like domination and cruelty and hatred that Christians should be (and for the most part are) more concerned with.

As I stated above, gay sex is an abomination, according to God. I'd wager they are both really really really bad. Thus, why are you trying to offer excuses, as to why gay sex is "not really as bad", when God disagrees with you?

I have told you what Christianity teaches. You can believe or you can reject it, but it is Christianity. I would only ask that non-Christians not attempt to inform Christians about what it is we really should believe.

[JoeyKnothead]

...
I have told you what Christianity teaches. You can believe or you can reject it, but it is Christianity. I would only ask that non-Christians not attempt to inform Christians about what it is we really should believe.

As we ask the Christian to quit restricting the rights and freedoms of others based on the opinions of a god they can't even show exists to have one.

[bjs1]

...
I have told you what Christianity teaches. You can believe or you can reject it, but it is Christianity. I would only ask that non-Christians not attempt to inform Christians about what it is we really should believe.

As we ask the Christian to quit restricting the rights and freedoms of others based on the opinions of a god they can't even show exists to have one.

This is kind of a weird and off topic thing to throw in to a debate about a completely different topic, but yeah, Christians seem to be doing an excellent job of this.

[brunumb]

Yes, some sins are “worse” than others. There is no official list, nor do I think that one could exist. The severity of sin can depend on the context. To punch someone in the nose out of a sudden rage is a sin, but to plot out punching someone because of spite and hatred is far worse. It is not as simple as “this is always worse than that.”

If the penalty for all sins is the same, how can we logically say there is any difference in the severity of the sin?

[bjs1]

Yes, some sins are “worse” than others. There is no official list, nor do I think that one could exist. The severity of sin can depend on the context. To punch someone in the nose out of a sudden rage is a sin, but to plot out punching someone because of spite and hatred is far worse. It is not as simple as “this is always worse than that.”

If the penalty for all sins is the same, how can we logically say there is any difference in the severity of the sin?

If I might answer by way of analogy:
If I place a straw as a bridge across the gap between two tables, and then I put a 2 pound weight on the the straw then the straw will break.
If I were to place a 10 pound weight on a straw in the same position then the straw will break.
Can we logically say there is any difference between the weights placed on the straws?

[brunumb]

Yes, some sins are “worse” than others. There is no official list, nor do I think that one could exist. The severity of sin can depend on the context. To punch someone in the nose out of a sudden rage is a sin, but to plot out punching someone because of spite and hatred is far worse. It is not as simple as “this is always worse than that.”

If the penalty for all sins is the same, how can we logically say there is any difference in the severity of the sin?

If I might answer by way of analogy:
If I place a straw as a bridge across the gap between two tables, and then I put a 2 pound weight on the the straw then the straw will break.
If I were to place a 10 pound weight on a straw in the same position then the straw will break.
Can we logically say there is any difference between the weights placed on the straws?

Yes, because we know the weights being placed on the straw. If stealing gets one the same eternal punishment as murder, or any other sin, then they have essentially been deemed the same. Our legal system applies different penalties which reflect what we regard as difference in severity of each crime.

[boatsnguitars]

All sin is equal in the sense that all sin comes from the same place of selfishness in the human soul that takes what is good and twists it into what is not good. However, while all sin comes from the same sinful nature, this does not mean that every action is equal. Gossip and murder both break the law of God, but murder is a far worse trespass. Just like nearly all legal systems, any violation of the law is a crime, but some crimes are more serious than others.

The catch, I suppose, is that God’s laws are about the state of our souls, so any sin that darkens our souls can have a deadly effect.

To specific questions:

1) When is it okay, verses not okay, for a Christian to intervene, when they feel they can actually stop others from assisting in "sin"?

I don’t know that there is a universal Christian rule here, but I would suggest that a Christian should intervene whenever he can do so in a good way (instead of giving in to evil himself), and he can be reasonably confident that his intervention will have a net positive effect.

2) Allow me to explain. Let's say a large company was also demonstrated to be involved in some level of sex trafficking. If the church was to protest against this company, would any of you Christians have a problem with it? I doubt it. So why in the heck wouldn't all of you Christians also have a problem, when Disney decided to apply benefits for gay partners? I mean, is God for or against gay sex, like God is apparently also against sex trafficking? Is gay sex no longer enough of a reason to protest, or to try and intervene in some kind of way?

I’m not sure that Disney has committed any sin here. The company itself is not having sexual relationships with anyone. Nor does it appear to be profiting for anyone’s sexual relationship. One could argue that it is supporting relationships that go against traditional Christin values, but that seems more like a culture wars issue than an ethical one. Beyond that, it is hard for me to oppose compassion of any kind, no matter whom it is shown to.

If someone doesn’t want to support a company because it promotes homosexuality that is their choice, but it seems more like a personal preference than a moral stand. I can see little comparison between providing employment benefits and profiting from creating suffering (such as in sex trafficking).

3) Christians, where EXACTLY does gay sex stack up, as compared to sex trafficking?

Sex trafficking is way, way more serious than gay sex. In sex trafficking the sin isn’t even sex. The sin is domination, abuse, and cruelty to another person.

Purely sexual sins – sins that involve a sexual relationship outside of one man and one woman in marriage – get a lot of press because we live in a sex obsessed world. However, on their own they are far from the heart of Christian ethics. Sins of the flesh are bad, but they are the least bad of all sins. The worst sins are spiritual. It is things like domination and cruelty and hatred that Christians should be (and for the most part are) more concerned with.

Matthew 12:30-32: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Feel free to rape, murder, pillage - just don't say "The Spirit is a knucklehead."

[POI]

Yes, some sins are “worse” than others. There is no official list, nor do I think that one could exist. The severity of sin can depend on the context. To punch someone in the nose out of a sudden rage is a sin, but to plot out punching someone because of spite and hatred is far worse. It is not as simple as “this is always worse than that.”

But this would all be assumption. Sounds like you are applying your own set of moral values, and are unable to assess if they align with god's moral values.

The Bible states gay sex is an abomination. That seems like god really detests such activity. Do you detest it too? If not, why not?

Again, that seems more like a culture war issue than an ethical choice. The motivation would matter, but the act itself seems neither good nor bad.

Not really. God states gay sex is an abomination. Thus, wouldn't it be commendable for Christians to protest Disney, which supports such acts?

I can understand how this makes sense from some atheist views on morality. However, what you describe is fundamentally against Christianity. To deny kindness or benefit to someone because they do what is wrong is the definition of being judgmental. There is quite a lot in the Christian scriptures and doctrine which opposes this. If an employer (Disney or any other employer) knew that an employ was actively involved in sex trafficking and did not report it to the authorities, then that would be terrible a sin.

I'm speaking about "God's law", not man's law. You do not have the luxury in making logical and secular judgements. You abide by God's rules above all else. In your worldview, God's law trumps all.

Thus, (is it, or is it not commendable), to protest against gay sex? I would imagine God thinks both gay sex, as well as sex trafficking, are both detestable. So Christians should try to deflect both. As they are both abominations against God.

I have told you what Christianity teaches. You can believe or you can reject it, but it is Christianity. I would only ask that non-Christians not attempt to inform Christians about what it is we really should believe.

This is a debate forum. I'm informing you that your God apparently detests gay sex, and I read as you try and make excuses for it. If you had the chance, you would intervene in sex trafficking, so why not gay sex? Does God think gay sex is detestable, or not?

[POI]

Message to the Christians reading along.....

The point of this thread is simple. God thinks gay sex is an abomination. And yet, nowadays, Christians rationalize this category, as if it's not as bad as what God thinks. Does god not think this anymore? Did he change his mind? If so, why? And why is it no longer an abomination? Or is it still?

If sin does, or does not, have an official ranking system, regardless of the official given list, gay sex would be near the top --- as one of God's no-no's. When comparing gay sex vs sex trafficking, it would be like comparing rape vs murder. They are all atrocities to god. Sure, there may be subtle nuances, context, and circumstance, but they are all still very 'bad'. according to god.

So why waste time, in trying to tell other Christians not to protest Disney for offering any type of aid to gay sex offenders?.?.?.