The Delay of the End

[Skeptical]

Hello all. Even though I am skeptical, at the same time, I am saddened and distressed by the many horrific and terrible things that we see go on around us in the world. Therefore, as a skeptic, I still do think about things such as the last days the end times. Therefore, as far as how things just keep going on and on and on, I understand that some Christians apply Habakkuk 2:3 to the situation. So, I would like to know from any type of theist, if they think that Habakkuk 2:3 is being used properly to understand this delayed situation? And the reason why I ask is because that verse seems to be able to justify any type of delay, postponement, or unfulfillment of any type of end time expectation.

New International Version
For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay.

https://biblehub.com/habakkuk/2-3.htm

[JehovahsWitness]

I think that most Jehovah's Witnesses and hyper-religious people realize that 2 Peter 3:3-10 is not referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE ...

As one of Jehovah’s Witnesses I am interested in what you define as "hyper religious"? I presume its pejorative but I could be wrong since bible writers, the millions of people that accept scripture as inspired and by that measure, Jesus Christ himself were "hyper religious" so it might just be an expression to mean take their faith seriously.

Your observations have been impressively inaccurate thus far regarding the beliefs if Jehoahs Witnesses but congratulations in the above being somewhat accurate (I say "somewhat" as one can speculate that the writer of 2 Peter did have the fast approaching destruction of Jerusalem in 70 in mind but the fulfillment of the scripture was indeed for the return of Christ and the end of the entire world system).

Clarification action would be appreciated but not really expected.


JW

[Skeptical]

As one of Jehovah’s Witnesses I am interested in what you define as "hyper religious"? I presume its pejorative but I could be wrong since bible writers, the millions of people that accept scripture as inspired and by that measure, Jesus Christ himself were "hyper religious" so it might just be an expression to mean take their faith seriously.

I meant the latter. Because just for the record, I do my best to try not to use pejoratives. Also, I'm sure it's against forum rules and you are a nice, kind, honest, and polite person and I have no motivation to be upset with you and would prefer not to use pejoratives against you and your faith, even though there are things that I disagree with about your faith.

Your observations have been impressively inaccurate thus far regarding the beliefs if Jehoahs Witnesses but congratulations in the above being somewhat accurate (I say "somewhat" as one can speculate that the writer of 2 Peter did have the fast approaching destruction of Jerusalem in 70 in mind but the fulfillment of the scripture was indeed for the return of Christ and the end of the entire world system).

Clarification action would be appreciated but not really expected.
JW

Well, I'm glad that you're impressed, but one can only get so much from youtube videos. But let's not be so judgmental and pessimistic. However, I would like to make a quote from an article that I found...

This was true in Isaiah’s day, in the first century and in today’s society. The world the first-century Church grew up in was corrupt, perverted and brutal.

The everyday circumstances of those early Christians undoubtedly created an intense yearning for Christ’s return—the fulfillment of the promise, which they thought would happen in their lifetimes. (To learn more about this crucial biblical promise, see “Why, When and Where Will Christ Return to Earth?”)

So, when believers began to die off—whether by persecution, sickness or natural causes—people got discouraged.

With that in mind, Peter urged the brethren to remember, “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

In 2 Peter 3:9 he presented several truths that need to be understood. Its meaning should have a tremendous impact on us today, just as it did on Christians 2,000 years ago.

So, what is the meaning of 2 Peter 3:9?

https://lifehopeandtruth.com/god/blog/w ... peter-3-9/

And I think there's a verse in the Bible that says two or three witnesses establishes truth. therefore, here is a 2nd example.

Early first, second and third generation Christians found themselves waiting for the second coming of Christ and began wondering, “Why hasn’t Jesus returned as he promised? What are we supposed to do while we’re waiting?”

For Christians like us almost 2,000 years later, those questions are still relevant. Why hasn’t Jesus returned as he promised? What are we supposed to do while we’re waiting? Join us in worship to hear how 2 Peter 3:8-15a answers those questions.

https://brewsterbaptistchurch.org/while ... of-christ/

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah’s Witnesses I am interested in what you define as "hyper religious"? I presume its pejorative but I could be wrong since bible writers, the millions of people that accept scripture as inspired and by that measure, Jesus Christ himself were "hyper religious" so it might just be an expression to mean take their faith seriously.

I meant the latter.

Okay ; I asked because "hyper" can mean excessive which is not evidently not the impression you wished to give. Taking your faith seriously is longer to type but has less negative connotations. Thank you for the quotes but could you summarize the point you wish to make is (I appreciate your use of bold, font and colour but I am despite that having trouble understanding your point and how it relates to my post)


JW

[2timothy316]

2Peter 3:8,9, the scripture that OWH quoted is a key scripture but so is Psalm 14:1, 2. Jehovah God is seeking those with insight. The root word of the Hebrew word insight is prudent.

Insight definition:
the capacity to gain an accurate and deep intuitive understanding of a person or thing.

Prudent definition:
1. acting with or showing care and thought for the future
2. showing good judgment in avoiding risks and uncertainties; careful

Psalm 14:2 says that God is also seeking those that are seeking Him. We all must ask the question, what kind of person am I?

Jehovah has a set date, that date is set so as to allow as many possible that are deep thinkers, those that see past the veneer of the world and those that seek God and are smart enough to think about the future and avoid the day when all the horrible things we see are brought to an end. Yet a morbid fear of judgment on the world is not a reason to serve God.

I have an additional question. Is that something new with JWs? That God is extending the last days because he needs to find more smart people to be JWs before the end comes? Because I have never heard of that before and I kind of keep up with JWs through youtube videos.

No. When the Bible says that a date has been set, that's it. There is no extending taking place. If you have never heard that before is because no has said that before. I think you're hearing what you want to hear. If you're keeping up with JWs through youtube that is a mistake. www.jw.org is the official way to keep up with us.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #1]

Your subject is: The Delay of the End

Then you quote as evidence a verse which states that the end awaits an appointed time and will certainly not be delayed:

Habakkuk 2:3 New International Version

For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay.

[Skeptical]

As one of Jehovah’s Witnesses I am interested in what you define as "hyper religious"? I presume its pejorative but I could be wrong since bible writers, the millions of people that accept scripture as inspired and by that measure, Jesus Christ himself were "hyper religious" so it might just be an expression to mean take their faith seriously.

I meant the latter.

Okay ; I asked because "hyper" can mean excessive which is not evidently not the impression you wished to give. Taking your faith seriously is longer to type but has less negative connotations. Thank you for the quotes but could you summarize the point you wish to make is (I appreciate your use of bold, font and colour but I am despite that having trouble understanding your point and how it relates to my post)


JW

It's getting late right now and I don't have a lot of time but figure out what is meant when one says the "former' and the "latter" and then you will know exactly what I was saying. If that still didn't help, I'll come back either tomorrow or the next day and try to explain it in more detail.

[Skeptical]

2Peter 3:8,9, the scripture that OWH quoted is a key scripture but so is Psalm 14:1, 2. Jehovah God is seeking those with insight. The root word of the Hebrew word insight is prudent.

Insight definition:
the capacity to gain an accurate and deep intuitive understanding of a person or thing.

Prudent definition:
1. acting with or showing care and thought for the future
2. showing good judgment in avoiding risks and uncertainties; careful

Psalm 14:2 says that God is also seeking those that are seeking Him. We all must ask the question, what kind of person am I?

Jehovah has a set date, that date is set so as to allow as many possible that are deep thinkers, those that see past the veneer of the world and those that seek God and are smart enough to think about the future and avoid the day when all the horrible things we see are brought to an end. Yet a morbid fear of judgment on the world is not a reason to serve God.

I have an additional question. Is that something new with JWs? That God is extending the last days because he needs to find more smart people to be JWs before the end comes? Because I have never heard of that before and I kind of keep up with JWs through youtube videos.

No. When the Bible says that a date has been set, that's it. There is no extending taking place. If you have never heard that before is because no has said that before. I think you're hearing what you want to hear. If you're keeping up with JWs through youtube that is a mistake. www.jw.org is the official way to keep up with us.

So, could you show me a jw.org video or jw.org article where it says that God is holding up the end of the world because he's trying to find more smart people to worship him?

[Skeptical]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #1]

Your subject is: The Delay of the End

Then you quote as evidence a verse which states that the end awaits an appointed time and will certainly not be delayed:

Habakkuk 2:3 New International Version

For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay.

So, are those emojis for me? Because they look kind of like ad hominems. And if so, you know I will report you, don't you?

Also, why is it that everyone else in this thread knows what I meant expect for you? Therefore, maybe your emojis actually apply to you and not me.

[boatsnguitars]

2 Peter, the most questionable book in the Bible (most scholars agree it is a pseudograph). Written for the sole purpose to explain away the broken promises of the early gospels, and the "false teachings" of so many prophets.

Kummel presents the arguments that make all critical scholars recognize that II Peter is a pseudepigraph]/b] (Introduction to the New Testament, pp. 430-4):


1. The literary dependence on Jude rules this out. II Pet 1 and 3 already have a number of contacts with Jude: cf. II Pet 1:5 with Jude 3; II Pet 1:12 with Jude 5; II Pet 3:2 f with Jude 17 f; II Pet 3:14 with Jude 24; II Pet 3:18 with Jude 25. The most striking agreements with Jude are shown in the portrayal of the false teachers in II Pet 2 and also in the illustrations based on the OT and the pictures drawn from nature, agreements in the exact wording and extensive agreements in sequence. The false teachers deny the Lord Christ and lead a dissolute life (II Pet 2:1 f = Jude 4), they despise and blaspheme the good angelic powers (II Pet 2:10 f = Jude 8 f), they speak in high-handed fashion (υπερογκα; II Pet 2:18 = Jude 16), they are blotches on the communal meal (σπιγοι συνευωχωμενοι; II Pet 2:13 = Jude 12), they are clouds tossed about by the wind, devoid of water, for whom the gloom of darkness is reserved (II Pet 2:17 = Jude 12 f), they are denounced for their fleshly corruption and their unrestrained mode of life (II Pet 2:10, 12 ff, 18 = Jude 7 f, 10, 12, 16). The sequence of examples of punishment from the OT in Jude 5 ff (Israel in the desert, fallen angels, Sodom and Gomorrah) is arranged in historical order in II Pet 2:4 ff and modified (fallen angels, Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah) because the author of II Pet needs the example of the Flood to combat the deniers of the parousia. The general statement in II Pet 2:11 makes sense only if note has been made of the concrete example mentioned in Jude 9. The image in Jude 12 f is more genuine and more plastic than the parallel in II Pet 2:17.

This material shows, therefore, that it is II Pet which is the dependent factor. It is further to be observed that the quotation from a noncanonical writing (Jude 14 f = the Apocalypse of Enoch 1:9; 60:8) is lacking in II Pet, and that by omitting certain essential features the allusions to the apocryphal writings have been somewhat obscured in Jude 6 (fallen angels) and 9 (the struggle between the archangel Michael and the Devil). From this it may be concluded that II Pet is already reluctant to use this literature whereas Jude has a naive attitude toward it. II Pet betrays a literary strategem in that the false teachers who are characterized by Jude as being in the present are depicted in II Pet as future and indeed predicted by Peter (2:1 ff, in the future; 3:3, 17 προγινωσκοντεσ). But in spite of this they are also described in the present tense (2:10, 12 ff, 20), and indeed the past tense is used (2:15, 22). Consequently it is almost universally recognized today that II Pet is dependent on Jude and not the reverse. Then II Pet 3:3 ff portrays the libertines as the deniers of the parousia. In this way he representes a more developed stage, while a less developed stage is evident in Jude, who does not yet know that the false teachers against whom he directs his attention might have denied the parousia. Since Jude belongs in the postapostolic age, Peter cannot have written II Pet.

2. The conceptual world and the rhetorical language are so strongly influenced by Hellenism as to rule out Peter definitely, nor could it have been written by one of his helpers or pupils under instructions from Peter. Not even at some time after the death of the apostle.

The Hellenistic concepts include: the αρετη of God (1:3), virtue in addition to faith (1:5); knowledge (1:2, 3, 6, 8; 2:20; 3:18); participation in the divine nature (θειασ κοινωνοι φυσεωσ) "in order that one might escape corruption that is present in the world because of lust" (1:4); the term εποπται comes from the language of the mysteries (1:16); placed side by side are a quotation from Proverbs and a trite saying from the Hellenistic tradition (2:22).

3. The letter has a keen interest in opposing the denial of the Christians' expectation of the parousia. 1:12 ff already deals with the hope of the parousia, which is based on the fact of the transfiguration of Jesus and the OT prophecy. In 3:3 ff there is a direct polemic against those who deny the parousia. These ask scornfully, "Where is the promise of the parousia of Christ?" and draw attention to the fact that since the fathers have fallen asleep everything remains as it has been from the beginning of creation (3:4). In I Clem 23:3 f and II Clem 11:2 ff too, there is adduced a writing which was obviously read in Christian circles, in which is laid down the challenge "We have already heard that in the days of our fathers, but look, we are become old and nothing of that has happened to us." I Clem was written ca. 95, and II Clem can hardly have been written earlier than 150. We have, therefore, historical evidence from the end of the first century onward for the disdainful skepticism which is expressed in II Pet 3:3 ff. But it is the Gnostics of the second century who have opposed the parousia and reinterpreted it along spiritualistic lines. It is probably also they who are meant by the proclaimers of the "clever myths" (1:16) and of "knowledge" (see point 2). Characteristic of them are the libertinism and the insolent disrespect for spirit powers (see point 1). II Pet is therefore aimed against a movement which bears the essential features of second-century gnosis. A more exact determination is not possible, however.

4. Also indicative of the second century is the appeal to a collection of Pauline letters from which "statements that are hard to understand" have been misinterpreted by the false teachers, and to further normative writings which inlcude not only the OT but also the developing NT (3:16). In view of the difficulty in understanding "scripture," and its ambiguity, II Pet offers the thesis that "no prophetic scripture allows an individual interpretation" because men have spoken under the power of the Holy Spirit (1:20 f). Since not every Christian has the Spirit, the explanation of Scripture is reserved for the ecclesiastical teaching office. Accordingly we find ourselves without doubt far beyond the time of Peter and into the epoch of "early Catholocism."

It is certain, therefore, that II Pet does not originate with Peter, and this is today widely acknowledged. This point of view can be confirmed through two further facts.

5. As in the case of the Pastorals, the pseudonymity in II Pet is carried through consistently by means of heavy stress on the Petrine authorship (see above, p. 430). The auther adduces his authority not only on the basis of the fiction of a "testament of Peter" but also by reference back to I Pet in 3:1 f, intending II Pet only to "recall" (1:12, 15; 3:1 f) what was said in I Pet to the extent that it corresponds to the interpretation which the author of II Pet wants to give to I Pet. This appeal to the apostolic authority of Peter and his letter is obviously occasioned by the sharpening of the Gnostic false teaching which is being combated in Jdue, as a result of a consistent denial of the parousia of the false teachers. In this way, the apostle has become the "guarantor of the tradition" (1:12 f), and as a consequence of the abandonment of the near expectation (3:8) the parousia is stripped of its christological character and functions as an anthropologically oriented doctrine of rewards. In its consistent quality the pseudonymity betrays the late origins of II Pet.

6. In spite of its heavy stress on Petrine authorship, II Pet is nowhwere mentioned in the second century. The apologists, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria, and the Muratorian Canon are completely silent about it. Its first attestation is in Origen, but according to him the letter is contested (αμφιβαλλεται). Eusebius lists it among the antilegomena. . . Even down to the fourth century II Pet was largely unknown or not recognized as canonical.

Furthermore, if it is recognized that I Peter is likely to be pseudepigraph, then II Peter must also be one because it refers back to the first one (3:1). Even assuming the authenticity of I Peter, however, it takes little reflection to recognize how unfortunate this church must have been, to be assailed at one moment by persecutors (in I Pet) and at the next moment by gnostic-style heretics (in II Pet), yet at the same time how blessed this church must have been, for the apostle Peter turned from preaching to writing in the final years of his life, and having received reconnaisance while in Rome on the rapidly evolving troubles of this parish, resolved to have them first consoled and then warned in his letters.

Besides, it is only so transparently not a letter, as the notes in the Catholic NAB state, "Except for the epistolary greetings in 1, 1-2, 2 Peter does not have the features of a genuine letter at all, but is rather a general exhortation cast in the form of a letter." As for the epistolary greeting, even it betrays that this is not actually correspondence, being sent "to those who have received a faith of equal value to ours through the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ." I certainly hope St. Peter would have provided better instructions for the courier, but perhaps he took a page from the book of the apostle Paul, who writes "to the holy ones who are faithful in Christ Jesus," which a later scribe was kind enough to explain as residing in Ephesus. Or perhaps the apostle Peter picked up this bad habit from Jude, the brother of James and a slave of Jesus Christ, who writes "to those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept safe for Jesus Christ."

The external evidence points most strongly to the inauthenticity of II Peter. If II Peter is authentic, then both epistles are authentic and both addressed themselves to the same church and were sent at approximately the same time (Peter's stay in Rome). Thus, it is most reasonable to assume that the two authentic epistles of Peter would have circulated together. However, the external evidence reveals that several early writers have knowledge only of I Peter, and this tells against the authenticity of II Peter.

The epistle known as Polycarp to the Phillipians has numerous allusions to NT epistles, making it likely that the author had some kind of collection available to him. There is a list of NT parallels available online. But the one epistle that the author seemed to have liked to use most was First Peter. The use is clearly evident, as shown in these examples.

"Therefore, girding your loins, serve God in fear" (Polyc 2:1 / I Pet 1:13)
"believing on him who raised our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead and gave him glory" (Polyc 2:1 / I Pet 1:21)
"not returning evil for evil or abuse for abuse" (Polyc 2:2 / I Pet 3:9)
"every passion of the flesh wages war against the Spirit" (Polyc 5:3 / I Pet 2:11)
"who bore our sins in his own body on the tree, who committed no sin, neither was guile found on his lips" (Polyc 8:1 / I Pet 2:24)

Yet despite his fondness for I Peter, the author does not provide the slightest allusion to II Peter. While I should not like to declare this argument to be insuperable, it does provide a consideration which isn't to be dismissed.

Irenaeus of Lyons obviously had a collection of canonical works that he quoted. Among these works were I Peter.

Adv. Haer. 4.9.2
"...and Peter says in his Epistle: 'Whom, not seeing, ye love; in whom, though now ye see Him not, ye have believed, ye shall rejoice with joy unspeakable;'..." (quoted of I Pet 1:8)

Adv. Haer 4.16.5
"And for this reason Peter says 'that we have not liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,' but as the means of testing and evidencing faith." (quoted of I Pet 2:16)

Yet nowhere does Irenaeus quote or mention a second epistle of Peter, which is quite odd if Irenaeus' collection included this epistle, for it has so much juicy material that Irenaeus would not hesitate to use against his heretical opponents. Irenaeus would have many occasions to use II Peter in his extensive refutations, and he very likely would have done so if it were an authentic letter of Peter.

I will briefly discuss Wallace's points. Despite the hopeful allusion-hunting of Picirilli, Polycarp and Irenaeus show that II Peter wasn't known in the second century church although I Peter was. The self-identification of the author as "Symeon Peter" provides no evidence one way or the other. II Peter does indeed show signs of hellenization as mentioned by Kummel above, and in any case Jewish Christians were not obliterated c. 70 CE. The construal of "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" as presenting a significantly lower christology than "our Savior and God Jesus Christ" borders on the absurd. Both expressions refer to Christ with the terms Savior and God, and thus the christological expressions are equivalent. Indeed, critical scholarship recognizes the appelation of Jesus as Savior or as God to be a second century phenomenon, and thus this lends further weight to the case that II Peter is to be dated firmly in the second century. Wallace sees "a humility, a pathos" in the statement that there are things in the collection of Paul's letters that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction. If there really is such, it is the affectation of the pseudipigraphist. Wallace relies on the supposition that the apostle Peter was actually informed of his martyrdom by the risen Christ as described by the redactor of John 21 in order to explain the comment in II Pet 1:14. Wallace even proposes that the guidance of the Holy Spirit in selecting the books of the canon lends support to the authenticity of II Peter. It is clear, then, that any scientific approach to the NT demands that II Peter be regarded as spurious.

As to dating, Perrin suggests (The New Testament: An Introduction, p. 262): "He is probably the latest of all the New Testament writers, and a date about A.D. 140 would be appropriate." Nearly all scholars would agree with a date sometime in the second century, probably in the second quarter.

The author of II Peter knew the epistle of Jude, I Peter, the synoptic account of the transfiguration, the Johannine appendix wherein Christ predicts the martyrdom of Peter, and a collection of Pauline letters. Finally, there seems to be a literary relationship of II Peter with the Apocalypse of Peter. Loisy judged II Peter to be dependent upon the Apocalypse, while some scholars today would judge the dependence to be in the reverse direction. I do not know of any data that would resolve this issue one way or the other.

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/2peter.html

Of course, the hyper-religious will ignore this and make up their own facts...

Well, boatsnguitars, that was kind of long, and even I didn't read it, however, I think that most Jehovah's Witnesses and hyper-religious people realize that 2 Peter 3:3-10 is not referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE but have never been told that it was about failed expectations of the end coming in the first century. Therefore, it wasn't just the Millerites, Jehovah's Witnesses, and others who had failed expectations of the end... But it was also, the "inspired" Bible writers such as Paul and Peter who had failed expectations too, who had even written about them and kind of screwed around with people's lives.

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]

1 Corinthians 7:26-33

26 The present time is a time of trouble, so I think it is good for you to stay the way you are. 27 If you have a wife, do not try to become free from her. If you are not married, do not try to find a wife. 28 But if you decide to marry, you have not sinned. And if a girl who has never married decides to marry, she has not sinned. But those who marry will have trouble in this life, and I want you to be free from trouble.

29 Brothers and sisters, this is what I mean: We do not have much time left. So starting now, those who have wives should live as if they had no wives. 30 Those who are crying should live as if they were not crying. Those who are happy should live as if they were not happy. Those who buy things should live as if they own nothing. 31 Those who use the things of the world should live as if they were not using them, because this world in its present form will soon be gone.

32 I want you to be free from worry. A man who is not married is busy with the Lord’s work, trying to please the Lord. 33 But a man who is married is busy with things of the world, trying to please his wife.

I didn't read what you wrote.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #38]

You claim there will be a delay in the coming of the end of times.

But the scriptures as inspired by God state that there will be no delay:

Habakkuk 2:3 New International Version

For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay.

Given those two possible choices, I believe what the scriptures!