Another Dumb Apologetic for the Resurrection?

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Another Dumb Apologetic for the Resurrection?

Post #1

Post by POI »



It's 16 minutes.

For Debate:

Christians, is the argument, "who's going to die for a lie", a good and sound argument to present to skeptics? If so, please watch the counter arguments in this above video, and then place your counter answers accordingly.

Mind you, this is also just ASSUMING that all his close followers did indeed martyr themselves....
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Re: Another Dumb Apologetic for the Resurrection?

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

"The disciples wouldn't die for a lie".One of Lane -Craig's favorites, wasn't it? In his resurrection apologetic which I may with feigned modesty claim I trashed so microscopically on my former board that the thread died immediately. Done here, too, I recall where it was asked just where it was sure the disciples had died from anything other than a lack of life - prolonging surgery. There's James (son of Zebedee) in Acts, but i wouldn't trust that book any further than I could kick a London Black Cab.

Let us now watch the vid. O:) And await comments. My money is on irrelevancies like I Corinthians, Prove they Didn't die rather than recant and possibly, early martydom stories, though apologists do treat those like unreliable weaponry, as likely to blow up in the users'face. They know how dodgy those are.

I lollecl. Right out of the traps, the caller cited dubious martyrdom - stories.

Lol again. When Heavens' Gate was brought up (I'd refer to Muslim Martyrs) as example of people who had died for what the caller would not consider true) he waved that away and said he wanted to talk about what's in scripture - which is really what is under question. The Claim isn't evidence for the claim. These people are unaware of the staggering arrogance they display in wanting to tailor the discussion to fit their narrative, even when they 'phone in.

There is a point where they seem to miss each other. It isn't Really about Martyrs who die for their Faith in 16th c Bohemia - they didn't see Jesus rise from the dead - but whether the (imputed) willingness to die rather than recant is evidence that the disciples at the time must have seen the resurrection and Their willingness to die for that claim means the resurrection they saw must be true. It isn't that they would die for what they'd been told - others can do that - but they died for what they claimed to have seen and had been proven to them; they couldn't be making a claim they knew was false; they would never die for that. I wonder whether they will grasp that is the real point.

They didn't, though the caller drifted onto it but couldn't spell it out and the hosts missed that for 'Other martyrs die for lies'. The real point is what the disciples claimed they saw (a definitely dead Jesus alive again) true? It must be, because they died rather than say it wasn't true.

That's a the big, juicy mealwurm on the hook. Any Bible apologists want to bite?

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Re: Another Dumb Apologetic for the Resurrection?

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TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 9:36 pm Any Bible apologists want to bite?
I doubt it. It's funny how this is one of the favorites, in start of supporting a resurrection claim. Yet, all I see here is 'crickets'.

Apologists, is this, or is this not, a good argument in support of a resurrection claim?
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Re: Another Dumb Apologetic for the Resurrection?

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

POI wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 11:44 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 9:36 pm Any Bible apologists want to bite?
I doubt it. It's funny how this is one of the favorites, in start of supporting a resurrection claim. Yet, all I see here is 'crickets'.

Apologists, is this, or is this not, a good argument in support of a resurrection claim?
No. Probably not. And I'll guess why, based on recall of the depth of the arguments. It looked like they just picked up the stock apologetics and just used them.And like an astonishing amount of polemics, after rebuttal there was no backup other than denial and making up far -fetched possible excuses. I reckon they don't think these things through. I do (maybe others do - I can't speak for them) but I do as I am interested in the Jesus puzzle. What really happened? I do not and will not stop at 'You must believe what the Bible says'. Because those testimonies would not stand up to cross-questioning in a court of law.

So why (in one case) do we get an ex-detective (he says) swearing that it would? I don't care about his credentials; he is wrong and is simply using appeal to his own authority to push a false narrative and that is the beginning, middle and end of it, and you may sell your Disney shares and invest in that.

The Martyrdom stories really are not to be trusted, not even as much as the gospels which are (I guess) based on a deep -buried fact - Jesus was a Rome - crucified Galilean, because that is an unwelcome fact they have to cover up and explain away. They are as irrelevant as the supposed extra - Biblical references to Jesus. They are, even quo vadis and 'I'm not worthy, crucify me upside-down', the fantasies of Cassock - wearing fantasists with their minds unhinged by too many years of celibacy. That aren't worth Squat.

So we get Cor I. I won't go deep - though I could - but it is clearly NOT what the gospel says. It is also suspiciously linked with Paul seeing Jesus in the head last of all. Take the gospels out of the equation with the contradictions as regards which (says I, wearing my wig and gown or in the USA a red nose and oversized top hat), would put it to you..."that there was no collusion (1), ladies and gentlemen of the Jury, other than a common claim they all had reason to validate, namely that the Body of the said Jesus got up and walked about with the marks of Crucifixion on for identification -purposes. Now, I won't detour into the absurdity of a risen Jesus in a new incorruptible body - still with wounds in, but that we have a classic case of witnesses who haven't been able to concoct their stories together telling discrepant stories, and that should discredit them from the start as any detective would know if he was any good at his job. I won't go into the contradictions again, ladies and gentlemen of the Jury, but would point out the significance of 'No ending in Mark'. Expert witness has made it clear that the Freer Logion - in two versions, mind - was added later and the women running away from the empty tomb is the very last thing they all agree on. John doesn't even agree the angelic message giving a snappy explanation. From then on it's just make up your own story in the belief that nobody was out there writing a different one.

Well folks, we got 'em. All four; five if you count the gospel of Peter; and the verdict you must give folks is guilty of not telling the truth, because they have four different stories and, if there was a true resurrection, they all knew, they would not have had to make their own up."

So we are left with the resurrections of I Cor. which, if Paul's was in his own head, I suggest theirs were, too.

(1) the collusion would be suspicious apologetic being a red herring. Same word collusion; suspicious (we do get it in the synoptics) basic agreement, convincing. Like the crucifixion, add -ons eliminated.

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Re: Another Dumb Apologetic for the Resurrection?

Post #5

Post by JoeyKnothead »

POI wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 8:53 pm For Debate:

Christians, is the argument, "who's going to die for a lie", a good and sound argument to present to skeptics? If so, please watch the counter arguments in this above video, and then place your counter answers accordingly.

Mind you, this is also just ASSUMING that all his close followers did indeed martyr themselves....
That whole die for a lie deal is quite goofy, considering how many folks Christians have put to death.
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Re: Another Dumb Apologetic for the Resurrection?

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Post by POI »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 1:07 pm
POI wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 8:53 pm

It's 16 minutes.

For Debate:

Christians, is the argument, "who's going to die for a lie", a good and sound argument to present to skeptics? If so, please watch the counter arguments in this above video, and then place your counter answers accordingly.

Mind you, this is also just ASSUMING that all his close followers did indeed martyr themselves....
That whole die for a lie deal is quite goofy, considering how many folks Christians have put to death.
What I also find strange, is the number of 'crickets' I continue to hear, as it pertains to this argument on this debating arena. When pressed, Christians no longer find it a very convincing argument, as the silence is deafening. And yet, I still hear this apologetic, out in the wild.
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Re: Another Dumb Apologetic for the Resurrection?

Post #7

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I thanked, rather than commented.But you'd think that we'd be overloaded with Resurrection -apologists with their arguments or at least those lifted from the Christianity websites. Well... O:) they may -yall be looking right now. But surely my -yall bluster about having beaten all the apologetics isn't going to scare'em y'all into unvision?

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Re: Another Dumb Apologetic for the Resurrection?

Post #8

Post by POI »

Due to the continued dead silence from Christians here, does this mean no Chrisitan here thinks this is a good apologetic either?
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Re: Another Dumb Apologetic for the Resurrection?

Post #9

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Not a thing, but reaching again for my Theist hat, I can find a suitable apologetic

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." – KJV, Matthew 7:6.

Funny though How they'll battle for the flood, slavery (not approved by the Bible), and for some reason, timings over Holy Week. But not a sossinge, here. Mind, I've had some lively apologetics but right now, nobody is biting. So far. Y'know if I was a mean spirited, satan -following nihilistic materialist, I might suspect they would prefer to avoid the debate yet again where some doubts and questions might be put, and even considering doubt and question is actually the Unforgivable sin.

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Re: Another Dumb Apologetic for the Resurrection?

Post #10

Post by Realworldjack »

[Replying to POI in post #1]

I am going to address this, but this is all I am going to address. What I am saying is, I am not willing to go off topic concerning anything else.

The arguments were absolutely terrible on both sides. It seems as if the caller was nervous, and although I think was attempting to get to the point, he never did, and one of the reasons was, every time he would almost get to the point he was attempting to make, one, or both of the hosts would interrupt the caller to make a point they had already made. So then, either the hosts knew he was about to get to a point they did not want to deal with, and diverted the caller away, or they are not even smart enough themselves to see the obvious point. The point is not, dying for what one believes to be true. The point is, dying for what one knows to be a lie. Can you see the difference? It is a tremendous difference. So then, the argument is, if the apostles did not see Jesus alive after death, then they would be lying when they report this to be the case, and they would know they were lying. Therefore, one would not be willing to die for what they know to be a lie.

Of course, the argument then goes into they may have been deceived in some sort of way, and so they were not really dying for what they knew to be a lie. But this is a whole different discussion. Allow me to put it like this. There are those opposed who make the argument that the apostles were responsible for the theft of the body, which would mean they knew full well Jesus did not raise. The point then would be, no one is going to go through all the apostles went through, to the point of death for what they know to be a lie. That's it! There is no more argument. Anything else which is brought in has nothing to do with this point. In other words, heavens gate has nothing to do with it. Those who flew the jets into the WTC have nothing to do with it. The apostles maybe only believing they saw Jesus but really did not has nothing to do with it. The only point is, if the apostles were responsible for the hoax, it is highly doubtful they all would go through all they did, to the point of death, knowing what the actual truth was.

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