Do Christian babies all gain entry to Heaven?

[oldbadger]

This my question:-

If a Christian infant dies, will it automatically gain entry to Heaven?

[myth-one.com]

And yes let's assume God is not a poor planner but a good one. The question is, does that require God to modify peoples' bodies at all?

Well we will all (eventually) be perfectly fit, if you call that modifying our bodies then I suppose so ... the human body is already designed to renew its cells, so theoretically we should already be living forever.

JW

Scientists have discovered the key to the human life cycle. It is what they call "telomeres."

Telomeres are repeating DNA strings (TTAGGG) that cap chromosomes. Each time a cell divides its telomeres become shorter. When they reach a preset length the cell ceases to divide, ages, and dies.

Independently, others came up with exactly the same number as the maximum age for mortal mankind three thousand years ago:

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)

The renewing cell process currently works for about 120 years. But even during the 120 years one could be killed accidently, by disease, or murdered, etc.

So the process of renewing cells in no way guarantees a long life! The average worldwide life span is dramatically less that the 120 years allowed by telomeres.


<============ Here's the Biblical path to everlasting life ===================>


The Bible says that there are two body types, natural and spiritual. Natural bodies die and spiritual bodies live eternally.

Therefore, the only path to everlasting life for any natural bodied being is to be born again as a spiritual bodied being.

The New Testament Covenant describes that everlasting life can only be attained by being born again of the Spirit.

Why is that the only path to everlasting life?

Because that which is born of the flesh is flesh and will perish!

But that which is born of the Spirit is spirit and will live eternally!

Once one is born of the Spirit, they are immortal, and death no longer applies to them!

So those born of the Spirit have gained everlasting life.

[myth-one.com]

This my question:-

If a Christian infant dies, will it automatically gain entry to Heaven?

If any infant believes in Jesus Christ as their Savior, they will gain everlasting life in the Kingdom of God:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Whosoever would include infants. Realistically, the answer is no.

<============== Here is how deceased infants may inherit the Kingdom of God ===================>

All deceased nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming as humans once again, and face judgment.

Deceased infants will be included in this group. The resurrected infants will grow up, be taught the good news, and make their personal decision to believe or reject Jesus as their Savior at that time.

Clever........... Join us, believe and obey and you can exist forever. Reject us and you will suffer the agonies of eternal hellfire.
As primitive belief system go, this one worked rather well. But babies and infants....... ?

I never said anything like that!

Every human who ever lived will choose everlasting life or everlasting death after hearing and understanding those two choices.

The majority of humans will make their decision after their first death. They will be resurrected as humans, preached the gospel, and make their choice at that time.

Those choosing everlasting life will become immortal spiritual bodied beings equal unto the angels.

Those choosing not to participate in everlasting life will die instantly in the lake of fire, never to exist again. The wages of sin is death, and that punishment lasts forever. They will never live again, and the dead know absolutely nothing. They don't know pain, fear, or anything. They don't even know that they are dead. Time & existence stops for them as per their personal decision not to participate in any additional life.

The lake of fire is eternal only because it is the prison for the devil. The devil is the only being said to be tormented day and night for ever and ever:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

The devil will be tormented forever because he cannot escape life through death -- being an immortal spirit.
<=================================>

Deceased infants will be resurrected as humans, grow to maturity, be preached the gospel, and make their choice like every other deceased non-believer., They will then either perish or live forever like the angels. If they choose death, it will be accomplished very quickly. There is no agony of eternal hellfire or any other physical pain. They are simply nonexistent.

[oldbadger]

Well we will all (eventually) be perfectly fit, if you call that modifying our bodies then I suppose so ... the human body is already designed to renew its cells, so theoretically we should already be living forever. I would like to be a little taller but I think the bodies we have are more or less those we will have for eternity; blemishes, imperfections and of course handicaps removed.

JW

That's convenient. Where did you get this idea?

[JoeyKnothead]

This my question:-

If a Christian infant dies, will it automatically gain entry to Heaven?

If any infant believes in Jesus Christ as their Savior, they will gain everlasting life in the Kingdom of God:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Whosoever would include infants. Realistically, the answer is no.

<============== Here is how deceased infants may inherit the Kingdom of God ===================>

All deceased nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming as humans once again, and face judgment.

Deceased infants will be included in this group. The resurrected infants will grow up, be taught the good news, and make their personal decision to believe or reject Jesus as their Savior at that time.

Clever........... Join us, believe and obey and you can exist forever. Reject us and you will suffer the agonies of eternal hellfire.
As primitive belief system go, this one worked rather well. But babies and infants....... ?

I never said anything like that!

Every human who ever lived will choose everlasting life or everlasting death after hearing and understanding those two choices.

The majority of humans will make their decision after their first death. They will be resurrected as humans, preached the gospel, and make their choice at that time.

Those choosing everlasting life will become immortal spiritual bodied beings equal unto the angels.

Those choosing not to participate in everlasting life will die instantly in the lake of fire, never to exist again. The wages of sin is death, and that punishment lasts forever. They will never live again, and the dead know absolutely nothing. They don't know pain, fear, or anything. They don't even know that they are dead. Time & existence stops for them as per their personal decision not to participate in any additional life.

The lake of fire is eternal only because it is the prison for the devil. The devil is the only being said to be tormented day and night for ever and ever:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

The devil will be tormented forever because he cannot escape life through death -- being an immortal spirit.
<=================================>

Deceased infants will be resurrected as humans, grow to maturity, be preached the gospel, and make their choice like every other deceased non-believer., They will then either perish or live forever like the angels. If they choose death, it will be accomplished very quickly. There is no agony of eternal hellfire or any other physical pain. They are simply nonexistent.

As far as theology goes, certainly this is the most rational conclusion here.

[JehovahsWitness]

Well we will all (eventually) be perfectly fit, if you call that modifying our bodies then I suppose so ... the human body is already designed to renew its cells, so theoretically we should already be living forever. I would like to be a little taller but I think the bodies we have are more or less those we will have for eternity; blemishes, imperfections and of course handicaps removed.

JW

That's convenient. Where did you get this idea?

The bible.




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To learn more please go to other posts related to

LIFE, EVERLASTING LIFE and ...THE HUMAN SOUL

[Miles]

.

FIRST CLAIM

Every human who ever lived will choose everlasting life or everlasting death after hearing and understanding those two choices.

The majority of humans will make their decision after their first death. They will be resurrected as humans, preached the gospel, and make their choice at that time.

Those choosing everlasting life will become immortal spiritual bodied beings equal unto the angels.

SECOND CLAIM

Those choosing not to participate in everlasting life will die instantly in the lake of fire, never to exist again. The wages of sin is death, and that punishment lasts forever. They will never live again, and the dead know absolutely nothing. They don't know pain, fear, or anything. They don't even know that they are dead. Time & existence stops for them as per their personal decision not to participate in any additional life.

The lake of fire is eternal only because it is the prison for the devil. The devil is the only being said to be tormented day and night for ever and ever:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

The devil will be tormented forever because he cannot escape life through death -- being an immortal spirit.

THIRD CLAIM

Deceased infants will be resurrected as humans, grow to maturity, be preached the gospel, and make their choice like every other deceased non-believer., They will then either perish or live forever like the angels. If they choose death, it will be accomplished very quickly. There is no agony of eternal hellfire or any other physical pain. They are simply nonexistent.

Interesting. I recognize the SECOND CLAIM as originating from several descriptions given in the Bible, but what Biblical scriptures support the FIRST and THIRD CLAIMS?

.

[tam]

Peace to you.

So there is no need to repeat everything that has already been stated.

If we agree that Jesus can be crystal clear, when he wants to be, and unclear when he wants to be, then yes. We do not then need to repeat. My position is that this topic was created, because as one reads the Bible, Jesus-God does not instruct what happens to the little dead ones. And yet, this seems like a pretty large topic he has missed.

You keep thinking that He missed topics, but not every topic needed to be addressed with the people to whom He was speaking. Jews who believed in the resurrection had no reason to think this would not also include infants. Of course it included infants. Since there was no such thing in Israel as a doctrine of 'hellfire', there was no issue. To those who did not believe in the resurrection, then none of this would matter.

The questions have now moved beyond the scope of the OP (perhaps because some could find no fault in the answer to the OP question.)

POI Regardless of scope, I feel it's important to address. Opting not to address organic follow-up, based upon a technicality, seems suspect. Thus far, you stating "I don't know", is quite telling. It validates my position, that Jesus is either:

a) haphazard in his decided given instruction(s), or...
b) purposefully omitting important information in which he knows people would wonder about.

I did not say I did not know with regard to "infants who are part of a Christian household." I also know (because of what my Lord has taught me) that many who are not Christian will enter into the Kingdom and receive eternal life. I have no reason to think that infants must be excluded.

Other than that, what occurs with non-Christians (and their children) is between them and their God (or lack thereof).

My God may have mercy upon whomever He chooses, according to whatever criteria He decides.

Meaning, he either is, or is not, being purposefully unclear in regard to the salvation topic.

I do not think it is Christians who find Him to be unclear.

If you are a person who does not believe in a resurrection at all (or that Christ will return), then nothing changes for you. Infants remain dead. End of discussion. Anything that happens beyond that is a blessing, a bonus, a great gift of both mercy and life.

tam Mercy can apply to all humans but there are conditions attached. This was discussed in that previous thread as well. For some reason, you think that if one person is shown mercy (for any reason) that means all people - no matter what - must be shown mercy. That makes no sense to me; I do not know how it makes sense to you.

POI Well, according to your beliefs, we all "sin", no matter how hard we may try not to. We apparently all fall short in one way or another. It should make perfect sense to you.

It is not about the fact that we all sin. It is about conditions being attached to certain things:

Be merciful and mercy will be shown you.

Does that sound like mercy will be shown to a person who is not merciful?

“Do not judge, or you will be judged. For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours."

tam My example addressed both the apples and the oranges.

POI It actually addresses neither.

It directly addresses both. Infants in the womb and infants outside of the womb.

tam Suggesting that God may then see something more in the child that we do not see (or hear) is reasonable.

POI Sure, many thought experiments can be reasonable. And yet, I'm sure many earnest Christians in the past and present, have absolutely no idea if their dead children went to heaven or not. Is that reasonable? They can read the whole Bible and still say "I don't know", just like you here and now.

I never said "I do not know" with regard to deceased children of Christian parents. I know what my Lord has shown me (that God saves entire households, that love would also save those you love, that the blood of the lamb covered the entire house and all the people in that house - infant or adult. That is the example from the Passover in Egypt.)

The point again being, even if you should decide to adopt one of Jesus' instructions for salvation, the dead newborn does not look to apply to either the theodicy route in Mark 16, or the deeds route in Matt. 25. So now what? Wishful thinking instead?

See above.

tam I 100% disagree.

POI Then if the way to Christ is by Mark 16:15-16, then dead infants are out. Same with Matthew 25, and the with the deeds, dead infants are out.

tam An infant might not be able to put it in words, but that does not mean they have no sense or knowing of God. I always sensed someone and I have no memory of anything else.

As well, if you are drawing your conclusions from the bible (at least when you think it is convenient to your point), John (the baptist) leapt for joy even in his mother's woman when Mary (pregnant with Christ) came to visit. God can also know people from the womb, even sometimes from before:

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5

POI As I've told you before, I'm a casual observer. It's not about convenience. None of it is authoritative for me.

Though I do not buy that (the bold) for a second, none of that changes what was is in it (which is what you are using to make your claims). My point stands. You have said nothing to rebut the point being made except to say "it" is not authoritative to you. Why else would you do that except that it is not convenient to your argument... since you do use what you think IS convenient to your argument?

However, some of it is inconvenient for you.

You think some of it is inconvenient for me, but there is no issue for me.

tam That is what people interpret it as saying. There are, however, problems with that interpretation. But that is another thread as well (and there are many around that deal with 'hell' and point out those problems).

POI Of course, we are interpreting it wrong. Got it

Or you're listening to the people who interpreted it wrong.



Peace again to you.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

He didn't. That is what they interpret.

That can be a problem, tam. If a anybody begins to tell me about 'what Jesus really meant' then I mistrust what they say next.
Jesus meant what he said, so all that needs to be reviewed is who wrote that and do they seem to have any agenda.

If you want to know what He meant (on something unclear, say, perhaps a parable), you might want to hear it from Him (or at least receive confirmation from Him if asking about someone else's explanation.)

One becomes Christian upon receiving holy spirit (making that person an anointed one; one who is anointed with holy spirit). Christ never used the word 'Christian', but He did breathe holy spirit upon His apostles, then later upon the people at Pentecost, then later upon Cornelius and his household. That is the baptism of holy spirit (the baptism of fire) that Christ performs. Luke 3:16, Acts 1:5

I don't believe that Jesus was around in any part of Acts, and Luke 3:16 reports what the Baptist claimed would happen, and as you know he later had to send his disciples to Jesus to ask him who he really was.

Holy spirits and holy breath ................. nobody has ever proved the existence of these. These kinds of claims cause me to think of other ancient and primitive beliefs.

Christ spoke of holy spirit, and did indeed breathe holy spirit onto His apostles. John 20:22

[I provided scriptural examples of entire households being saved (as were once pointed out to me), including the direct correlation of the blood of the lamb on the doorposts in Israel saving every person in that house from Death. Christ is Himself the Passover lamb.

...which reminded me of the Abrahamic God and stories of his mass killings of infants.

What does 'it reminded me of this' have to do with the point?

Remember, the faith of Abraham saved his entire household. Same with Noah. Same with Rahab. Same with the people in Israel (the entire house was covered, every person within that house protected when Death passed over the land).
Hope that helps.

...each time that death passed over the land, it was caused by the God that you believe in.

What does your comment here have to do with the point I made in regard to your OP question?

I think that all such tragedies are natural, and that mankind lives under the rules of Mother Nature.

Again what does that have to do with the question or point of the OP?

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing, or would you like to acknowledge the above examples?

I do come here to debate, tam, and I am a Deist...... have you ever acknowledged any part of Deism?

I acknowledge that some people are deists. I don't know what that has to do with the OP question or the point I made in regard to that. I did not go to a deist forum (or a deist thread on this forum) and ask questions about it, then refuse to acknowledge the points made in response to my questions.

Most of your examples have shown me that the God that you believe in would be a mass murderer if he had really existed.

Which makes me think that your OP had some motive other than a discussion of the actual question asked.

Do they now?

I desire mercy, not sacrifice. - Hosea 6:6

He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does [the LORD] require of you but to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God? - Micah 6:8

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Tammy, I quoted the words of Jesus and so you showed where they had been spoken before........ as if Jesus had pretended he had initiated them.

Mostly every word and phrase that we speak has been uttered or writ large before. Jesus meant what he said.

First - He also spoke about holy spirit.

Second - I quoted those words from the OT to show you that His Father was merciful then as well (since you claimed Christians have told you not to quote from the OT).



Peace again to you.

[Clownboat]

I desire mercy, not sacrifice. - Hosea 6:6

1 Corinthians 5:7
New International Version
7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

Ephesians 5:2
New International Version
2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

What is this thing that wants mercy and not sacrifice?

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

slave
noun
1.
a person who is forced to work for and obey another and is considered to be their property; an enslaved person.

How can we trust you when your position is one forced upon you?

Perhaps you are this kind of slave?:
At Anti-Slavery International, we define modern slavery as when an individual is exploited by others, for personal or commercial gain. Whether tricked, coerced, or forced, they lose their freedom.

(Side note for the readers)
Could you imagine talking to a rape victim and claiming to also be a rape victim because you were price gouged at the auto store? Wouldn't that diminish actual rape victims? If a person is not actually being forced, they are not a slave, just like how being price gouged (raped by the store, many times while alluding to no lube) is to not actually be a rape victim.

[Clownboat]

And yes let's assume God is not a poor planner but a good one. The question is, does that require God to modify peoples' bodies at all?

Well we will all (eventually) be perfectly fit, if you call that modifying our bodies then I suppose so ... the human body is already designed to renew its cells, so theoretically we should already be living forever.

JW

Scientists have discovered the key to the human life cycle. It is what they call "telomeres."

Telomeres are repeating DNA strings (TTAGGG) that cap chromosomes. Each time a cell divides its telomeres become shorter. When they reach a preset length the cell ceases to divide, ages, and dies.

Independently, others came up with exactly the same number as the maximum age for mortal mankind three thousand years ago:

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)

The renewing cell process currently works for about 120 years. But even during the 120 years one could be killed accidently, by disease, or murdered, etc.

So the process of renewing cells in no way guarantees a long life! The average worldwide life span is dramatically less that the 120 years allowed by telomeres.


<============ Here's the Biblical path to everlasting life ===================>


The Bible says that there are two body types, natural and spiritual. Natural bodies die and spiritual bodies live eternally.

Therefore, the only path to everlasting life for any natural bodied being is to be born again as a spiritual bodied being.

The New Testament Covenant describes that everlasting life can only be attained by being born again of the Spirit.

Why is that the only path to everlasting life?

Because that which is born of the flesh is flesh and will perish!

But that which is born of the Spirit is spirit and will live eternally!

Once one is born of the Spirit, they are immortal, and death no longer applies to them!

So those born of the Spirit have gained everlasting life.

Do you think this is why religions invented the idea of a soul/spirit? There has to be something that lives on after the body dies and soul/spirit ideas allow for this.