Do Christian babies all gain entry to Heaven?

[oldbadger]

This my question:-

If a Christian infant dies, will it automatically gain entry to Heaven?

[tam]

Peace to you,

I desire mercy, not sacrifice. - Hosea 6:6

1 Corinthians 5:7
New International Version
7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

Ephesians 5:2
New International Version
2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

What is this thing that wants mercy and not sacrifice?

Just as He said. God desires mercy, not sacrifice. Therefore, one might want to consider that there is another reason that Christ needed to be a sacrifice.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

slave
noun
1.
a person who is forced to work for and obey another and is considered to be their property; an enslaved person.

How can we trust you when your position is one forced upon you?

1 - What does this have to do with the OP or the debate question? Or is it just ad hominem?

2 - How can you be trusted when you know full well that I am not being forced into anything because I have explained it on numerous occasions. Just as none of the apostles or disciples who chose to serve (and who referred to themselves in the same way) were being forced. As someone who claims to have been Christian and read the bible (etc), this description (and its actual meaning) should not even be unfamiliar to you. Christ also submitted entirely to the will of His Father, taking the form of a slave, and He was not forced either.

3 - I am not going to continue to engage this line of discussion with you because a) it has nothing to do with the OP and will serve only to derail the topic; b) it is nothing more than ad hominem (my points stand or fall regardless of my job, my status, my gender, age, etc...); and c) it has all been said before.


4 - Doulos:

†δοῦλος doûlos, doo'-los; from G1210; a slave (literal or figurative, involuntary or voluntary; frequently, therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency):—bond(-man), servant.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/

I - a slave, bondman, man of servile condition

A - slave

B - metaph., one who gives himself up to another's will those whose service is used by Christ in extending and advancing his cause among men

C - devoted to another to the disregard of one's own interests

II - a servant, attendant

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/



Peace again.

[myth-one.com]

.

FIRST CLAIM

Every human who ever lived will choose everlasting life or everlasting death after hearing and understanding those two choices.

The majority of humans will make their decision after their first death. They will be resurrected as humans, preached the gospel, and make their choice at that time.

Those choosing everlasting life will become immortal spiritual bodied beings equal unto the angels.

SECOND CLAIM

Those choosing not to participate in everlasting life will die instantly in the lake of fire, never to exist again. The wages of sin is death, and that punishment lasts forever. They will never live again, and the dead know absolutely nothing. They don't know pain, fear, or anything. They don't even know that they are dead. Time & existence stops for them as per their personal decision not to participate in any additional life.

The lake of fire is eternal only because it is the prison for the devil. The devil is the only being said to be tormented day and night for ever and ever:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

The devil will be tormented forever because he cannot escape life through death -- being an immortal spirit.

THIRD CLAIM

Deceased infants will be resurrected as humans, grow to maturity, be preached the gospel, and make their choice like every other deceased non-believer., They will then either perish or live forever like the angels. If they choose death, it will be accomplished very quickly. There is no agony of eternal hellfire or any other physical pain. They are simply nonexistent.

Interesting. I recognize the SECOND CLAIM as originating from several descriptions given in the Bible, but what Biblical scriptures support the FIRST and THIRD CLAIMS?

.

First Claim -- Nonbelievers can accept Jesus as their Savior after their first death.

The following is what the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die. Likewise, every human who ever died shall be resurrected or made alive again. Jesus was resurrected first:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (I Corinthians 15:20)

The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which "they that are Christ's" will be resurrected. "They that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection for all Christians occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."

At this same time, Christians who are alive on the earth when Jesus returns will be born again as spirits and meet Him in the air:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

At this point after the first resurrection, all Christians (dead or alive) have been born again as spiritual beings into the Kingdom of God. They will then enjoy the millennium with Jesus:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

After the millennium, all dead nonbelievers are resurrected from their graves as humans once again and face judgment:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

After the judgment of those resurrected in the second resurrection (nonbelievers), whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Be aware that absolutely none of those resurrected at the second resurrection had their names written in the book of life when resurrected! Every single human, dead or alive, with their names written in the book of life (believers) were born again into everlasting spiritual life at the first resurrection! The Book of Life was cleared! No more names are in it going into the judgment.

So why are they checking the book again after the judgment? Something obviously occurred since these nonbelievers were resurrected to cause the book of life to be modified. Otherwise, there would be no reason to check the book again for their names. What happened? Nonbelievers resurrected to mortal life at the second resurrection will make their choice after understanding what the two possible choices are. They will be given their choice after their resurrection as mortal humans in the second resurrection. From the New International Version of The Holy Bible:

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. (I Peter 4:5)

Their choice will be based on being preached the true gospel message for the first time. It will be preached at this time in the entire world, before the end of the age of man can occur:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

The end refers to the end of the age of mankind. It will occur 7,000 years after the creation of Adam and Eve.

Recall that all dead and living Christians were born again as spiritual bodied beings at the Second Coming. And there is no reason to believe that anyone will become a believer during the 1000 year millennium period of rest, as they had no preachers:

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:14)

All whose names were written in the Book of Life as believers were born again at the Second Coming. So the Book of life has been cleared. All inheritors have received their rewards. After the 1000 year Millennium, the second resurrection for mankind occurs:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:4)

Everyone raised in this second resurrection of mankind will face the great white throne judgment as all have sinned and are all headed for the second death.

The judgment will hold them responsible for their behavior as humans and some may see that God's plan for them was better than their way of life.

Satan is locked away during this time, the scriptures are unsealed, and these nonbelievers are preached the true good news of the gospel.

Following this process, the Book of Life is checked again.

Why check the book if there were no names in it prior to the second resurrection, and everyone resurrected at the second resurrection was headed for the second death?

Would God raise these people again as physical bodies only to humiliate them during their judgment before casting them into the lake of fire? Why bother raising them from the dead only to inflict another painful physical death upon them? This flies in the face of "God is love." If the nonbelievers are being resurrected to be humiliated by judgment before being killed a second time, why not simply allow them to remain dead?

Of course, God is love, and He is raising the nonbelievers for a reason! One event prophesied to occur before the end of time is that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world.

Billions or trillions of people have died never having the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior. These nonbelievers are raised again as mortals during the second resurrection and given that opportunity! The majority of all people who have ever lived have never, ever, heard the true message of the Holy Scriptures, even in the United States. Remember that the scriptures have been very successfully sealed until the end of time! At this time these people will hear the true message for the first time from angels, including Christians born again as spirits in the first resurrection, with Satan and all of his myths and lies totally defeated. Most people have never been given a choice based on Biblical truth! Their choice was based on myths and fear.

Those times will be over!

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)


Third Claim

The "First Claim" applies to all mankind regardless of age. Infants are a subset of the human race.

Deceased infants will make their decision after being resurrected as mortals at the second resurrection of mankind as they are nonbelievers. I guess they would be resurrected as they died -- as infants. But who knows. There will be no rush of time. Also, those who face judgment have sins imputed against them. But infants have no sins imputed against them.

What exactly is sin? Sin is the transgression of the commandments of God which are also called the law:

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4)

So sin is transgression of the law. But what if there is no law? Then there is no sin:

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)

Infants have no law because they do not understand the law. If they do "break a law," it is not imputed against them,

Allowing them time to grow to maturity gives them the ability to learn the law, sin or obey the law, and make their decision to choose everlasting life or death.

[Miles]

.

FIRST CLAIM

Every human who ever lived will choose everlasting life or everlasting death after hearing and understanding those two choices.

The majority of humans will make their decision after their first death. They will be resurrected as humans, preached the gospel, and make their choice at that time.

Those choosing everlasting life will become immortal spiritual bodied beings equal unto the angels.

SECOND CLAIM

Those choosing not to participate in everlasting life will die instantly in the lake of fire, never to exist again. The wages of sin is death, and that punishment lasts forever. They will never live again, and the dead know absolutely nothing. They don't know pain, fear, or anything. They don't even know that they are dead. Time & existence stops for them as per their personal decision not to participate in any additional life.

The lake of fire is eternal only because it is the prison for the devil. The devil is the only being said to be tormented day and night for ever and ever:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

The devil will be tormented forever because he cannot escape life through death -- being an immortal spirit.

THIRD CLAIM

Deceased infants will be resurrected as humans, grow to maturity, be preached the gospel, and make their choice like every other deceased non-believer., They will then either perish or live forever like the angels. If they choose death, it will be accomplished very quickly. There is no agony of eternal hellfire or any other physical pain. They are simply nonexistent.

Interesting. I recognize the SECOND CLAIM as originating from several descriptions given in the Bible, but what Biblical scriptures support the FIRST and THIRD CLAIMS?

.

First Claim -- Nonbelievers can accept Jesus as their Savior after their first death.

The following is what the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die. Likewise, every human who ever died shall be resurrected or made alive again. Jesus was resurrected first:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (I Corinthians 15:20)

The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which "they that are Christ's" will be resurrected. "They that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection for all Christians occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."

At this same time, Christians who are alive on the earth when Jesus returns will be born again as spirits and meet Him in the air:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

At this point after the first resurrection, all Christians (dead or alive) have been born again as spiritual beings into the Kingdom of God. They will then enjoy the millennium with Jesus:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

After the millennium, all dead nonbelievers are resurrected from their graves as humans once again and face judgment:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

After the judgment of those resurrected in the second resurrection (nonbelievers), whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Be aware that absolutely none of those resurrected at the second resurrection had their names written in the book of life when resurrected! Every single human, dead or alive, with their names written in the book of life (believers) were born again into everlasting spiritual life at the first resurrection! The Book of Life was cleared! No more names are in it going into the judgment.

So why are they checking the book again after the judgment? Something obviously occurred since these nonbelievers were resurrected to cause the book of life to be modified. Otherwise, there would be no reason to check the book again for their names. What happened? Nonbelievers resurrected to mortal life at the second resurrection will make their choice after understanding what the two possible choices are. They will be given their choice after their resurrection as mortal humans in the second resurrection. From the New International Version of The Holy Bible:

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. (I Peter 4:5)

Their choice will be based on being preached the true gospel message for the first time. It will be preached at this time in the entire world, before the end of the age of man can occur:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

The end refers to the end of the age of mankind. It will occur 7,000 years after the creation of Adam and Eve.

Recall that all dead and living Christians were born again as spiritual bodied beings at the Second Coming. And there is no reason to believe that anyone will become a believer during the 1000 year millennium period of rest, as they had no preachers:

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:14)

All whose names were written in the Book of Life as believers were born again at the Second Coming. So the Book of life has been cleared. All inheritors have received their rewards. After the 1000 year Millennium, the second resurrection for mankind occurs:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:4)

Everyone raised in this second resurrection of mankind will face the great white throne judgment as all have sinned and are all headed for the second death.

The judgment will hold them responsible for their behavior as humans and some may see that God's plan for them was better than their way of life.

Satan is locked away during this time, the scriptures are unsealed, and these nonbelievers are preached the true good news of the gospel.

Following this process, the Book of Life is checked again.

Why check the book if there were no names in it prior to the second resurrection, and everyone resurrected at the second resurrection was headed for the second death?

Would God raise these people again as physical bodies only to humiliate them during their judgment before casting them into the lake of fire? Why bother raising them from the dead only to inflict another painful physical death upon them? This flies in the face of "God is love." If the nonbelievers are being resurrected to be humiliated by judgment before being killed a second time, why not simply allow them to remain dead?

Of course, God is love, and He is raising the nonbelievers for a reason! One event prophesied to occur before the end of time is that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world.

Billions or trillions of people have died never having the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior. These nonbelievers are raised again as mortals during the second resurrection and given that opportunity! The majority of all people who have ever lived have never, ever, heard the true message of the Holy Scriptures, even in the United States. Remember that the scriptures have been very successfully sealed until the end of time! At this time these people will hear the true message for the first time from angels, including Christians born again as spirits in the first resurrection, with Satan and all of his myths and lies totally defeated. Most people have never been given a choice based on Biblical truth! Their choice was based on myths and fear.

Those times will be over!

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

Sorry, but all this is coming across as just so much silly fiction without a scintilla of evidence to back it up. Reminds me of the tactics of Oral Roberts and his ilk: Just make it up as you go along, because as long as it sounds good, it is good.

Third Claim

The "First Claim" applies to all mankind regardless of age. Infants are a subset of the human race.

No. Infants are just as much a part of the human "race" as are snotty teenagers, overweight adults, and drooling old folk.

Deceased infants will make their decision after being resurrected as mortals at the second resurrection of mankind as they are nonbelievers. I guess they would be resurrected as they died -- as infants. But who knows. There will be no rush of time. Also, those who face judgment have sins imputed against them. But infants have no sins imputed against them.

What exactly is sin? Sin is the transgression of the commandments of God which are also called the law:

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4)

So sin is transgression of the law. But what if there is no law? Then there is no sin:

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)

Infants have no law because they do not understand the law. If they do "break a law," it is not imputed against them,

Allowing them time to grow to maturity gives them the ability to learn the law, sin or obey the law, and make their decision to choose everlasting life or death.

Sorry I asked.

.

[myth-one.com]

.

FIRST CLAIM

Every human who ever lived will choose everlasting life or everlasting death after hearing and understanding those two choices.

The majority of humans will make their decision after their first death. They will be resurrected as humans, preached the gospel, and make their choice at that time.

Those choosing everlasting life will become immortal spiritual bodied beings equal unto the angels.

SECOND CLAIM

Those choosing not to participate in everlasting life will die instantly in the lake of fire, never to exist again. The wages of sin is death, and that punishment lasts forever. They will never live again, and the dead know absolutely nothing. They don't know pain, fear, or anything. They don't even know that they are dead. Time & existence stops for them as per their personal decision not to participate in any additional life.

The lake of fire is eternal only because it is the prison for the devil. The devil is the only being said to be tormented day and night for ever and ever:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

The devil will be tormented forever because he cannot escape life through death -- being an immortal spirit.

THIRD CLAIM

Deceased infants will be resurrected as humans, grow to maturity, be preached the gospel, and make their choice like every other deceased non-believer., They will then either perish or live forever like the angels. If they choose death, it will be accomplished very quickly. There is no agony of eternal hellfire or any other physical pain. They are simply nonexistent.

Interesting. I recognize the SECOND CLAIM as originating from several descriptions given in the Bible, but what Biblical scriptures support the FIRST and THIRD CLAIMS?

.

First Claim -- Nonbelievers can accept Jesus as their Savior after their first death.

The following is what the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die. Likewise, every human who ever died shall be resurrected or made alive again. Jesus was resurrected first:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (I Corinthians 15:20)

The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which "they that are Christ's" will be resurrected. "They that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection for all Christians occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."

At this same time, Christians who are alive on the earth when Jesus returns will be born again as spirits and meet Him in the air:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

At this point after the first resurrection, all Christians (dead or alive) have been born again as spiritual beings into the Kingdom of God. They will then enjoy the millennium with Jesus:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

After the millennium, all dead nonbelievers are resurrected from their graves as humans once again and face judgment:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

After the judgment of those resurrected in the second resurrection (nonbelievers), whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Be aware that absolutely none of those resurrected at the second resurrection had their names written in the book of life when resurrected! Every single human, dead or alive, with their names written in the book of life (believers) were born again into everlasting spiritual life at the first resurrection! The Book of Life was cleared! No more names are in it going into the judgment.

So why are they checking the book again after the judgment? Something obviously occurred since these nonbelievers were resurrected to cause the book of life to be modified. Otherwise, there would be no reason to check the book again for their names. What happened? Nonbelievers resurrected to mortal life at the second resurrection will make their choice after understanding what the two possible choices are. They will be given their choice after their resurrection as mortal humans in the second resurrection. From the New International Version of The Holy Bible:

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. (I Peter 4:5)

Their choice will be based on being preached the true gospel message for the first time. It will be preached at this time in the entire world, before the end of the age of man can occur:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

The end refers to the end of the age of mankind. It will occur 7,000 years after the creation of Adam and Eve.

Recall that all dead and living Christians were born again as spiritual bodied beings at the Second Coming. And there is no reason to believe that anyone will become a believer during the 1000 year millennium period of rest, as they had no preachers:

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:14)

All whose names were written in the Book of Life as believers were born again at the Second Coming. So the Book of life has been cleared. All inheritors have received their rewards. After the 1000 year Millennium, the second resurrection for mankind occurs:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:4)

Everyone raised in this second resurrection of mankind will face the great white throne judgment as all have sinned and are all headed for the second death.

The judgment will hold them responsible for their behavior as humans and some may see that God's plan for them was better than their way of life.

Satan is locked away during this time, the scriptures are unsealed, and these nonbelievers are preached the true good news of the gospel.

Following this process, the Book of Life is checked again.

Why check the book if there were no names in it prior to the second resurrection, and everyone resurrected at the second resurrection was headed for the second death?

Would God raise these people again as physical bodies only to humiliate them during their judgment before casting them into the lake of fire? Why bother raising them from the dead only to inflict another painful physical death upon them? This flies in the face of "God is love." If the nonbelievers are being resurrected to be humiliated by judgment before being killed a second time, why not simply allow them to remain dead?

Of course, God is love, and He is raising the nonbelievers for a reason! One event prophesied to occur before the end of time is that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world.

Billions or trillions of people have died never having the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior. These nonbelievers are raised again as mortals during the second resurrection and given that opportunity! The majority of all people who have ever lived have never, ever, heard the true message of the Holy Scriptures, even in the United States. Remember that the scriptures have been very successfully sealed until the end of time! At this time these people will hear the true message for the first time from angels, including Christians born again as spirits in the first resurrection, with Satan and all of his myths and lies totally defeated. Most people have never been given a choice based on Biblical truth! Their choice was based on myths and fear.

Those times will be over!

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

Sorry, but all this is coming across as just so much silly fiction without a scintilla of evidence to back it up. Reminds me of the tactics of Oral Roberts and his ilk: Just make it up as you go along, because as long as it sounds good, it is good.

Third Claim

The "First Claim" applies to all mankind regardless of age. Infants are a subset of the human race.

No. Infants are just as much a part of the human "race" as are snotty teenagers, overweight adults, and drooling old folk.

Deceased infants will make their decision after being resurrected as mortals at the second resurrection of mankind as they are nonbelievers. I guess they would be resurrected as they died -- as infants. But who knows. There will be no rush of time. Also, those who face judgment have sins imputed against them. But infants have no sins imputed against them.

What exactly is sin? Sin is the transgression of the commandments of God which are also called the law:

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4)

So sin is transgression of the law. But what if there is no law? Then there is no sin:

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)

Infants have no law because they do not understand the law. If they do "break a law," it is not imputed against them,

Allowing them time to grow to maturity gives them the ability to learn the law, sin or obey the law, and make their decision to choose everlasting life or death.

Sorry I asked.

.

No problem!

At least now you know what the fate of deceased infants and other nonbelievers is according to the Bible!

God bless.

[oldbadger]

Peace to you,

Christ spoke of holy spirit, and did indeed breathe holy spirit onto His apostles. John 20:22[/quote}
Ah........ after the crucifixion. I don't think that Jesus died, Tam, so he certainly could have seen his disciples, but I casnnot see how all that is relevevant to babies getting to heaven.

Which makes me think that your OP had some motive other than a discussion of the actual question asked.

Well of course I want to debate Christian babies getting to heaven, but there is so much variation in answers. If you question ideas then you tend to get more information.

First - He also spoke about holy spirit.

Second - I quoted those words from the OT to show you that His Father was merciful then as well (since you claimed Christians have told you not to quote from the OT).

Peace again to you.

No Tam........ the Abrahamic God is anything but merciful.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #1]

No one knows this answer. It was why the doctrine of Limbo exists. It is a possible answer. There are many possible answers.

My answer is that all people will get a chance to hear the gospel as it is intended to be heard. Most haven't heard it as it is intended to be heard. They will get this chance in purgatory. BTW, purgatory has different levels of suffering, and as some church fathers have taught, there is a section of purgatory without suffering at all.

So infants will develop into adult minds through their growth in purgatory. They will get a chance to be tested by evil and overcome it by Christ. They will be given the chance to hear the gospel as an adult rational mind so they can either accept Christ or reject him.

[Clownboat]

Just as He said. God desires mercy, not sacrifice. Therefore, one might want to consider that there is another reason that Christ needed to be a sacrifice.

I believe you got the 'therefore' wrong.
A more sensical reading is: God desires mercy, not sacrifice. Therefore, God employs mercy and not sacrifices.

God: "I want mercy, but I'm going with sacrifices anyway".
Your explanation doesn't make sense and should be rejected.

1 - What does this have to do with the OP or the debate question? Or is it just ad hominem?

I believe that actual slaves would be insulted and just because you do it for religious reasons does not remove the insult to the actual humans we have on this planet that are actually suffering from slavery.
Most of what I said was directed at the readers anyway. Did the rape analogy make any sense to you at all? Could you see how actual rape victims are diminished if I claim to be one because of how I feel I was priced gouged at the store? Could you look at an emaciated, malnourished starving person and say to them that you are starving too because you missed lunch?
I take offense to this out of compassion for our slaves not to make some ad hominem at you. Perhaps it is good that you feel attacked, but that is not my intent.

Peace to you, your fighter of offences for Christ.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #1]

No one knows this answer. It was why the doctrine of Limbo exists. It is a possible answer. There are many possible answers.

My answer is that all people will get a chance to hear the gospel as it is intended to be heard. Most haven't heard it as it is intended to be heard. They will get this chance in purgatory. BTW, purgatory has different levels of suffering, and as some church fathers have taught, there is a section of purgatory without suffering at all.

So infants will develop into adult minds through their growth in purgatory. They will get a chance to be tested by evil and overcome it by Christ. They will be given the chance to hear the gospel as an adult rational mind so they can either accept Christ or reject him.

Where did the idea of purgatory come from? I'm not aware of it in the Bible specifically, just that in 1274 the Catholic church seems to have created it as a doctrine.

Admittedly, I was brought up Pentecostal and was taught that the Catholics worshipped Mary, but were at least trying to serve the right God, so we never addressed purgatory as for us it was nothing more than a Catholic invention. When I was a child, I did not know that my sources were untrustworthy.

[Clownboat]

At least now you know what the fate of deceased infants and other nonbelievers is according to the Bible!

God bless.

Surely you have seen in this thread alone that there is no agreement amongst Christians, which makes your claim of victory odd and seemingly prideful don't you think? Or do you actually think you are the one that got it right and your other believers are wrong? What did that old book say about pride again?

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Christ spoke of holy spirit, and did indeed breathe holy spirit onto His apostles. John 20:22

Ah........ after the crucifixion. I don't think that Jesus died, Tam, so he certainly could have seen his disciples, but I casnnot see how all that is relevevant to babies getting to heaven.

It was simply about what made a person Christian. That point brought us to babies born to a Christian parent (which is kind of what I think you mean by "Christian babies".) Since God saves entire households, that would include the children born to that household, so that "Christian babies" do receive a resurrection (if needed) and entrance into the Kingdom (in heaven and/or on earth).

That is the topic right?

I'm not sure why you don't seem to want to discuss that?

Which makes me think that your OP had some motive other than a discussion of the actual question asked.

Well of course I want to debate Christian babies getting to heaven, but there is so much variation in answers. If you question ideas then you tend to get more information.

Okay. But shouldn't you at least also discuss the topic?

First - He also spoke about holy spirit.

Second - I quoted those words from the OT to show you that His Father was merciful then as well (since you claimed Christians have told you not to quote from the OT).

Peace again to you.

No Tam........ the Abrahamic God is anything but merciful.

This sounds to me as if you are ignoring any verses or explanation that might contradict your statement and simply repeating your belief. How am I supposed to respond to that?


Peace again to you.