Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

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Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #1

Post by Skeptical »

Doing some research for The Logic of Satan's Temptation to Eve thread, I came across this article:

https://www.gotquestions.org/talking-snake.html

which says:
Still, why didn’t Adam and Eve find it strange that an animal was speaking to them? It is unlikely that Adam and Eve had the same perspective we do on animals. In our era, we know from experience that animals are incapable of speech on the same level as humans. Adam and Eve did not have a childhood, nor did they have other humans to learn from. Given that Adam and Eve had probably only been alive a matter of days, it is not unreasonable for them to believe that animals were capable of speech. It is also possible that this was not the first talking animal Adam and Eve had encountered. Perhaps Satan or even God Himself had used animals to communicate with Adam and Eve before. There are so few details given in the account that much is left to speculation and presumption.


Huh? 🤔

Therefore, I would like to know if there are any other Christians besides the one's from Got Questions who think that it's a possibility that animals used to talk a long time ago back in the Garden of Eden.

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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #21

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Skeptical wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 12:06 am Why would God allow such a horrible thing to happen in his Garden of Eden?
The tree was a test. What would be the point of devising a test and not allowing anyone to fail it?

The SEPENT (Satan) temptation was not part of God's purpose but it was something that God allowed to see if his children were loyal to Him. Sadly Adam and Eve proved to be disloyal but they had the right to make such a choice.


JW



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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #22

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Skeptical wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 10:23 pm Doing some research for The Logic of Satan's Temptation to Eve thread, I came across this article:

https://www.gotquestions.org/talking-snake.html

which says:
Still, why didn’t Adam and Eve find it strange that an animal was speaking to them? It is unlikely that Adam and Eve had the same perspective we do on animals. In our era, we know from experience that animals are incapable of speech on the same level as humans. Adam and Eve did not have a childhood, nor did they have other humans to learn from. Given that Adam and Eve had probably only been alive a matter of days, it is not unreasonable for them to believe that animals were capable of speech. It is also possible that this was not the first talking animal Adam and Eve had encountered. Perhaps Satan or even God Himself had used animals to communicate with Adam and Eve before. There are so few details given in the account that much is left to speculation and presumption.


Huh? 🤔

Therefore, I would like to know if there are any other Christians besides the one's from Got Questions who think that it's a possibility that animals used to talk a long time ago back in the Garden of Eden.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but it was not a talking snake. It was the Adversary himself (a seraph, what most people refer to as simply an angel). That drakon, that ancient SERPENT (Rev 20:2).

The word dragon derives from the Greek δράκων (drakōn) and its Latin cognate draco. Ancient Greeks applied the term to large, constricting snakes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragons_i ... _mythology
In Greece the word drakōn, from which the English word was derived, was used originally for any large serpent (see sea serpent), and the dragon of mythology, whatever shape it later assumed, remained essentially a snake.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/dragon ... l-creature


It was not a talking snake. It was a seraph: a flying fiery serpent.
In Hebrew, the word saraph means "burning", and is used seven times throughout the text of the Hebrew Bible as a noun, usually to denote "serpent",[5] twice in the Book of Numbers, once in the Book of Deuteronomy, and four times in the Book of Isaiah.[6][7][8] The reason why the word for "burning" was also used to denote a serpent is not universally agreed upon; it may be due to a certain snake's fiery colors, or perhaps the burning sensation left by its venomous bite. Regardless, its plural form, seraphim, occurs in both Numbers and Isaiah, but only in Isaiah is it used to denote an angelic being; likewise, these angels are referred to only as the plural seraphim – Isaiah later uses the singular saraph to describe a "fiery flying serpent", in line with the other uses of the term throughout the Tanakh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph


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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #23

Post by William »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #20]
What bible version has it that a ventriloquist was involved?
In English snake and serpent are synonymous. The Encyclopaedia Britanica notes
SNAKE, (suborder Serpentes), also called serpent, any of more than 3,400 species of reptiles distinguished by their limbless condition and greatly elongated body and tail.
I wasn't asking which version of encyclopedia. I asked which version of bible

CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS
The one read with critical thinking skills. (Demonstarted in the above post #4)
There is no version of any bible given in post #4.
For that matter, there are no identifiable critical thinking skills re that post either.
Which version are you using which identifies a SNAKE as being the critter which tempted Eve?
The Hebrew word used in the Genesis account is "nachash" (נָחָשׁ); language experts understand this to be a generic, or general, term which applys to all snakes or serpentlike creatures, and it is often used along with other Hebrew words that denote a particular kind of snake (Ps 58:4; 140:3; Pr 23:32) .
From the information you provided, we can evaluate that the use of the word "Serpent" denotes the Familiar Gene, as biologists continue to do re sorting Species into specific Specie categories.
Serpent means "Classification Reptilia" "Of the Reptilian Family"

Thus, the Serpent was a member of the Reptilian Family - no doubt the dominant one at that, since he/she could also talk. Like humans are the dominants of the Ape Specie/Family because of our complex language systems.
OP: Did a snake really speak in the Garden of Eden?
No, snakes cannot talk, they have not been created with the intelligence to speak nor have they vocal cords or the ability to do so.

The snake in the Genesis accounts was a dumb beast being maniupulated in a similar way to how a VENTRILOQUIST makes a dummy "speak" by projecting his voice so that he listener is unaware of WHO really is speaking.
Claiming that the Reptile Eve was speaking with, was a snake AND didn't really have the power of speech and that Eve was actually hearing a supernatural being called "Satan" who was "being a ventriloquist", is Supernaturalizing. [re the Family of Supernaturalism.]

Claiming that the Reptile Eve was speaking with, was a snake would have this reader wondering what exactly the punishment was from YHVH for what the snake did... as the snake was already slithering around in the dust...when he/she wasn't dangling around in trees totally unaware he/she was being used as a puppet.
This Hebrew term corresponds to the Greek ophis (ὄφις) as confirmed by 2 Corinthians 11:3.
Whether Ophis is an equivalent or similarly used as the Hebrews nachash isn't overly apparent.

One thing is clear though. The emphasis is on resemblance re biology. It was Adams job to be the biologist and I am sure he knew a dumb snake from a talking lizard, if I am following the story correctly.
I am not prepared to assume Eve was stupid in that regard either.

The Greek Family mixed and matched and the consequence of that is Christianity and its mythologies moving well away from how the Hebrew Family first told their stories.

We know that by the images which arise from the Greek/Roman Family influence, such as the example below, depicting a "supernatural" being influencing a natural being - something prevalent in the Greco-Roman coupling re Family belief systems, which often resulted in religions being formed and cultivated.

The Hebrews saw such religions as Paganism and false worship of imagined beings which - unlike YHVH - didn't exist anywhere in Nature and certainly didn't have the great and mighty powers of ventriloquism.

Image

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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #24

Post by William »

[Replying to tam in post #22]
It was not a talking snake. It was a seraph: a flying fiery serpent.
Image
The Greek Family mixed and matched and the consequence of that is Christianity and its mythologies moving well away from how the Hebrew Family first told their stories.

We know that by the images which arise from the Greek/Roman Family influence, such as the example below, depicting a "supernatural" being influencing a natural being - something prevalent in the Greco-Roman coupling re Family belief systems, which often resulted in religions being formed and cultivated.
Image
The Hebrews saw such religions as Paganism and false worship of imagined beings which - unlike YHVH - didn't exist anywhere in Nature.

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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #25

Post by tam »

[Replying to William in post #24]

I'm not sure what your point is, William (peace to you.)
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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #26

Post by JehovahsWitness »

It was not a talking snake. It was a seraph: a flying fiery serpent.

DID EVE TALK TO A SERAPH?

In scripture seraphs are high ranking angels. A number of God's Prophets have seen such spirit creatures in visions. For example the Prophet Isaiah saw a heavenly vision and recounts ...
ISAIAH 6:1, 2

... I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne, and the skirts of his robe filled the temple. Seraphs were standing above him; each had six wings. Each covered his face with two and covered his feet with two, and each of them would fly about with two

Although it seems evident that Eve was indeed speaking to an invisible spirit creature that rebelled against God, what his former rank or position was in heaven is not specifically stated. He may well have been of such a High rank but we cannot be dogmatic about this.



CAN THE SNAKE / SERPENT THROUGH WHICH SATAN SPOKE BE DESCRIBED AS A SERAPH?

The Hebrew word seraphim is derived from the verb saraphʹ, meaning “burn.” So "seraphim" (plural) literally means “burning ones.” (perhaps a reference to the angels impressive appearance). In the bible book of Numbers, the people are bitten by snakes/serpents, which are described as being figuratively ( “fiery" ) , as in inflammation-causing.

NUMBERS 21:6

Then the LORD sent venomous ("fiery" Heb: saraph) snakes [Nachash = snake /serpant]among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died
The Israelites were clearly not bitten by angels and the account uses the general term for snake [NACHASH] so they were evidently not bitten by some mythical unknown creature, but by a species of snake*. While the King James Version and others hold to the root meaning of the word (fiery), other translations describe the snakes as "poisonous" "venomous " or "deadly" (various translations: https://biblehub.com/numbers/21-6.htm )

* there is no indication these snakes were "flying"

The snake with whom Eve "conversed" is NOT described as being "venomous" (sa·raphʹ) , so there is absolutely no basis to describe it as a seraph.




JW


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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #27

Post by Miles »

tam wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 12:31 pm
I cannot speak for anyone else, but it was not a talking snake.
Considering Genesis 3:1, out of the 54 Bibles I checked, 1 called the animal who spoke to Eve "the Shining One," 11 called it a "snake," and 42 called it a "serpent."

Now, if one looks at the definition of "serpent," "snake" is the first (implication: most common) definition given in every dictionary I looked at. Which means that, in effect, 53 of the 54 Bibles (98%) identify the talking animal as a snake. Now, why Rev 20:2 recast this snake as a dragon is anybody's guess or left to Christian apologists to figure out. But my question is: why should "dragon" take president over the earlier description in Genesis of "snake"? If one does choose to claim it was a dragon rather than a snake who spoke to Eve they will need far more evidence then just the etymology of the word "dragon."

It was the Adversary himself (a seraph, what most people refer to as simply an angel). That drakon, that ancient SERPENT (Rev 20:2).
I note that in quite a few Bibles it says "that old snake" instead of "that ancient serpent." But because "serpent" refers to a snake, it's a moot point. But are dragons actually snakes? Not in any book I've ever read.

........................................ Image

It was not a talking snake.
So you cherry pick your verses and simply ignore Genesis 3:1? Okay. So much for integrity.

It was a seraph: a flying fiery serpent.
Because why? Where in the Bible does it say it was a "seraph: a flying fiery serpent" who spoke to Eve, or words to that effect?

In Hebrew, the word seraph means "burning", and is used seven times throughout the text of the Hebrew Bible as a noun, usually to denote "serpent",[5] twice in the Book of Numbers, once in the Book of Deuteronomy, and four times in the Book of Isaiah.[6][7][8] The reason why the word for "burning" was also used to denote a serpent is not universally agreed upon; it may be due to a certain snake's fiery colors, or perhaps the burning sensation left by its venomous bite. Regardless, its plural form, seraphim, occurs in both Numbers and Isaiah, but only in Isaiah is it used to denote an angelic being; likewise, these angels are referred to only as the plural seraphim – Isaiah later uses the singular seraph to describe a "fiery flying serpent", in line with the other uses of the term throughout the Tanakh.
Ah ha. It doesn't. I'm guessing you simply want it to be a seraph. Right? Right!

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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #28

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Miles wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 5:34 pm
tam wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 12:31 pm
I cannot speak for anyone else, but it was not a talking snake.
Considering Genesis 3:1, out of the 54 Bibles I checked, 1 called the animal who spoke to Eve "the Shining One," 11 called it a "snake," and 42 called it a "serpent."

Now, if one looks at the definition of "serpent," "snake" is the first (implication: most common) definition given in every dictionary I looked at. Which means that, in effect, 53 of the 54 Bibles (98%) identify the talking animal as a snake. Now, why Rev 20:2 recast this snake as a dragon is anybody's guess or left to Christian apologists to figure out. But my question is: why should "dragon" take president over the earlier description in Genesis of "snake"? If one does choose to claim it was a dragon rather than a snake who spoke to Eve they will need far more evidence then just the etymology of the word "dragon."
To the bold and underlined: Why?

Revelation was not written in modern times. It matters what the word meant when it was written. It matters what the word meant THEN.

The word being used at Revelation 20:2 is 'drakon'. The modern westernized dragon evolved from that, but the modern westernized dragon is not what the author of Revelation would have been referring to. The word he used is 'drakon', and drakon was used to describe a serpent (see the links provided in my first post above).


Think more along the lines of an eastern type dragon (chinese dragon). Serpent-like.
It was the Adversary himself (a seraph, what most people refer to as simply an angel). That drakon, that ancient SERPENT (Rev 20:2).
I note that in quite a few Bibles it says "that old snake" instead of "that ancient serpent." But because "serpent" refers to a snake, it's a moot point. But are dragons actually snakes? Not in any book I've ever read.

........................................ Image
Google Chinese dragon images, Persian dragon images, Aztec dragon images (sometimes depicted with feathers instead of wings). They are serpent-like. They are also much older (some might say, ancient, even ;) ) than the western-type dragon.

It was not a talking snake.
So you cherry pick your verses and simply ignore Genesis 3:1? Okay. So much for integrity.
Or maybe instead of questioning my integrity, you could see for yourself that the word 'drakon' is also used for serpent.

It was a seraph: a flying fiery serpent.
Because why? Where in the Bible does it say it was a "seraph: a flying fiery serpent" who spoke to Eve, or words to that effect?
A seraph is an angel. The Adversary is an angel. Angels can fly (flying). Angels are fiery (in appearance, think about the angel that spoke to Moses from the bush that appeared to be burning, but was not). The Adversary is specifically referred to as a drakon, that ancient serpent.
In Hebrew, the word seraph means "burning", and is used seven times throughout the text of the Hebrew Bible as a noun, usually to denote "serpent",[5] twice in the Book of Numbers, once in the Book of Deuteronomy, and four times in the Book of Isaiah.[6][7][8] The reason why the word for "burning" was also used to denote a serpent is not universally agreed upon; it may be due to a certain snake's fiery colors, or perhaps the burning sensation left by its venomous bite. Regardless, its plural form, seraphim, occurs in both Numbers and Isaiah, but only in Isaiah is it used to denote an angelic being; likewise, these angels are referred to only as the plural seraphim – Isaiah later uses the singular seraph to describe a "fiery flying serpent", in line with the other uses of the term throughout the Tanakh.
Ah ha. It doesn't. I'm guessing you simply want it to be a seraph. Right? Right!
Why would I care if it was a seraph or the Adversary speaking through a snake? I find the latter a bit redundant, since the Adversary was there, is a serpent, and can speak... but either way, it is still the Adversary deceiving Eve.


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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #29

Post by onewithhim »

William wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 1:07 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #4]
The snake in the Genesis accounts was a dumb beast being maniupulated in a similar way to how a VENTRILOQUIST makes a dummy "speak" by projecting his voice so that he listener is unaware of WHO really is speaking.
Image

What bible version has it that a ventriloquist was involved?
We're just using our power of reason. (Isaiah 1:18---"Come now and let us reason together.")

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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #30

Post by Miles »

tam wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 6:31 pm Peace to you,
Miles wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 5:34 pm
tam wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 12:31 pm
I cannot speak for anyone else, but it was not a talking snake.
Considering Genesis 3:1, out of the 54 Bibles I checked, 1 called the animal who spoke to Eve "the Shining One," 11 called it a "snake," and 42 called it a "serpent."

Now, if one looks at the definition of "serpent," "snake" is the first (implication: most common) definition given in every dictionary I looked at. Which means that, in effect, 53 of the 54 Bibles (98%) identify the talking animal as a snake. Now, why Rev 20:2 recast this snake as a dragon is anybody's guess or left to Christian apologists to figure out. But my question is: why should "dragon" take president over the earlier description in Genesis of "snake"? If one does choose to claim it was a dragon rather than a snake who spoke to Eve they will need far more evidence then just the etymology of the word "dragon."
To the bold and underlined: Why?
Because it takes more than to just laying down dots. You have to connect them to make sense. The use of a word is far more important than its derivation. In fact, its etymology usually mean bupkis when it comes to understanding its contemporary meaning.

Revelation was not written in modern times. It matters what the word meant when it was written. It matters what the word meant THEN.
No. What matters is what an ancient word means to the translators and how it's then translated into English, which for many Bibles is quite a problem.

Ever look to see how the Hebrew word ra`in Isaiah 45:7 has been translated?

Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create [ ra`]: I the Lord do all these things.

I have.

Out of 66 Bibles I checked ra` has been translated as X, plus the number of times that word has appeared in the 66, along with their percentages:

..X
evil 26 40%
disaster 11: 17%
doom 1: <1%
woe 9: 14%
sorrow 1: <1%
trouble 3: 5%
calamity 8: 12%
trouble(s) 2: 3%
bad 1: <1%
discord 1: <1%
hard times 1: <1%
bad times 1: <1%
adversity 1: <1%



If a translator reads the Hebrew "גָדוֹל" and translates it as "big" you're okay; however, if he translates reads it as "pig" then you may be in a sea of who - shot - John. So, unless one is trained in an ancient language, translating a word or phrase into English can get you into a whole lot of trouble. So what does the ordinary person such as you and I do? We rely on the translator to have gotten it right. That when they translate a foreign word like trække på (Danish) as "dragon" we have to trust they got it right; that trække på does indeed mean "dragon" in English.---which, upon considering Isaiah 45:7 , can be a fool's undertaking.


The word being used at Revelation 20:2 is 'drakon'. The modern westernized dragon evolved from that, but the modern westernized dragon is not what the author of Revelation would have been referring to. The word he used is 'drakon', and drakon was used to describe a serpent (see the links provided in my first post above).
Think more along the lines of an eastern type dragon (chinese dragon). Serpent-like.
Totally irrelevant.

It was the Adversary himself (a seraph, what most people refer to as simply an angel). That drakon, that ancient SERPENT (Rev 20:2).
I note that in quite a few Bibles it says "that old snake" instead of "that ancient serpent." But because "serpent" refers to a snake, it's a moot point. But are dragons actually snakes? Not in any book I've ever read.

........................................ Image
Google Chinese dragon images, Persian dragon images, Aztec dragon images (sometimes depicted with feathers instead of wings). They are serpent-like. They are also much older (some might say, ancient, even ;) ) than the western-type dragon.
Again, irrelevant.

It was not a talking snake.
So you cherry pick your verses and simply ignore Genesis 3:1? Okay. So much for integrity.
Or maybe instead of questioning my integrity, you could see for yourself that the word 'drakon' is also used for serpent.
No. I question your integrity because you deliberately ignore what Genesis 3:1 says in favor of what is written in Revelation. As for "drakon," if it's used for serpent, then fine because then your drakon refers to a snake, "Snake" being the common definition of "serpent." (see my previous explanation).


It was a seraph: a flying fiery serpent.
Because why? Where in the Bible does it say it was a "seraph: a flying fiery serpent" who spoke to Eve, or words to that effect?
A seraph is an angel. The Adversary is an angel. Angels can fly (flying). Angels are fiery (in appearance, think about the angel that spoke to Moses from the bush that appeared to be burning, but was not). The Adversary is specifically referred to as a drakon, that ancient serpent.
BUT, Where in the Bible does it say it was a "seraph: a flying fiery serpent" who spoke to Eve, or words to that effect? You can't just put 2 + 2 together and get 100. Unless the Bible says "seraph: a flying fiery serpent" spoke to Eve, or words to that effect, you have no grounds to assert it.

In Hebrew, the word seraph means "burning", and is used seven times throughout the text of the Hebrew Bible as a noun, usually to denote "serpent",[5] twice in the Book of Numbers, once in the Book of Deuteronomy, and four times in the Book of Isaiah.[6][7][8] The reason why the word for "burning" was also used to denote a serpent is not universally agreed upon; it may be due to a certain snake's fiery colors, or perhaps the burning sensation left by its venomous bite. Regardless, its plural form, seraphim, occurs in both Numbers and Isaiah, but only in Isaiah is it used to denote an angelic being; likewise, these angels are referred to only as the plural seraphim – Isaiah later uses the singular seraph to describe a "fiery flying serpent", in line with the other uses of the term throughout the Tanakh.
Ah ha. It doesn't. I'm guessing you simply want it to be a seraph. Right? Right!
Why would I care if it was a seraph or the Adversary speaking through a snake? I find the latter a bit redundant, since the Adversary was there, is a serpent, and can speak... but either way, it is still the Adversary deceiving Eve.
And I'm still not reading where in the Bible it it says it was a "seraph: a flying fiery serpent" who spoke to Eve, or words to that effect.



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