Purple Knight wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 3:14 pm
2timothy316 wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 10:04 am
What I pay attention to the most is what a person does when they discover they are wrong. Here are the responses that irk me.
1. Double down on their wrong course.
2. Try to change the meanings of words so that they seem like they were always right. Or with the Bible, fumble through trying to change the meaning of a scripture on-the-fly.
3. Put their fingers in their ears and say 'la la la la la'.
4. Attack the credibility of the person they got the information from. (This tool is worn-out on us JWs)
5. Say, "well, this is MY truth", then ignore the new information, as if truth was subjective.
6. They see the information is correct but can't be bothered with changing their minds. Sunk-cost fallacy: "I've lived my whole life believing this way, I don't want to change."
7. So full of themselves they can't hear anyone since the love the sound of their own voice so much.
I have so much triggered and hate for #5 that I will explode and say things that get me in trouble. They never mean it. Subjective means they can't impose on others, either, and they always want to. Here's how it goes for me:
Purple Knight: "As far as that goes, here are the reasons I think X is actually true."
People: "Don't give me your rationality and your logic. My truth is that X is not the case. I feel this way and you can't impose your truth on me."
Purple Knight: "Well I feel this other way about it, so X is still my truth then."
People: "You're bad and you should feel bad."
That does pretty much sum it up, sadly.
I'm nowhere near as bad off as JWs, who actually have the Bible right and come under attack from Christians who have never read the Bible at all, simply because "fringe nutjobs lol," when the fact is that any rational person who has read the Bible critically with the mind of a nerdy, intelligent Star Trek fan, can see that you have canon correct and there is simply no support for these mainstream Christian beliefs like that people turn into angels when they die, and the afterlife is non-physical.
Well, thank goodness at least somebody gets it. Now, I'm not going to say there are not JWs that are just mainstream JWs. Going through the motions, going out field service, going to meetings, etc without giving much thought as to why they do what they are doing. This type of person doesn't last in the JW religion. They just simply burn out from the weight of persecution and ask themselves, 'why am I dealing with this?' Then go about their merry way. Sometimes into a really bad situation. Like a good friend of mine did this in the late 90s. He ended up going wild, like so many do that think they have been denied a good life being a JW, myself included, I did some moronic things in my youth too. But this guy did a cocktail of drugs fell asleep at the wheel of a car and slammed into a family of 4, killing them all. Next they spend 22 years in prison. While in prison he became a nerdy intelligent Star Trek fan of the Bible. He is no longer that mainstream person and I have forgiven him for his past deeds because he is truly sorry. His debt to society is paid and he gets it now, as do I. Today, we are better friends than we ever were and we are nerdy Bible people together having a blast, living the way of life that we wanted to get away from so badly while we were younger. Never realizing how much protection that way of life was.
But I get a little taste of it because my conscience doesn't work like normal peoples' and I have to reason everything. Sometimes, logical and inescapable conclusions of the things that are mainstream beliefs, are things that are hateful to those beliefs. Regular people don't introspect, they don't scrutinise, they just believe whatever they're supposed to and get angry or offended, and start shaming anyone for not seeing it their way, which should probably be #8 on that list.
Yeah, that probably should be #8. Go from 0 to 'I hate your guts' in 2 words. People today don't want to scrutinize and there is only one thing they don't want more and that is to be scrutinized. I welcome intelligent scrutiny. Not hateful opinion based garbage. This is why avoid the C&A forum.
2timothy316 wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 10:04 amNow, a person will either admire the humble person admitting their error or bash them for admitting their error.
This is why you can't find a humble person in the sense you're talking about. (Humble and proud are weird words. For example, I think a lot of myself, but if I couldn't admit I was wrong when I very well was, I wouldn't deserve that.) People in modern day will take an apology and use that to tear a person asunder. They're always sniffing for any sign of weakness, like an apology, and when they find one, the whole pack falls upon the victim.
This fact saddens me deeply. It takes away the ability to grow as a person when one is in fear of admitting a mistake. Do I like doing it? No way! But after putting into practice James 5:16, "Therefore, openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. A righteous man’s supplication has a powerful effect." and Hebrews 12:11, "True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful; yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." I have found this advice to be sooooooo true. I use in a lot in my marriage when I'm in the wrong. Whew, and man I hate eating crow. SO the best thing is to be careful in the first place. I have literally been trained by admitting fault when I'm in the wrong. By being introspective and scrutinizing myself, as you have pointed out, before I say or do something. This saves me from eating crow all the time. This all leads to a healing. I heal my relationships and heal myself by being more thoughtful.
Compare this to many in the world. Proverbs 28:13, 14 says for them that do the exact opposite... "The one covering over his transgressions will not succeed. But whoever confesses and abandons them will be shown mercy. Happy is the man who is always on guard, But whoever hardens his heart will fall into calamity." Most of mankind has not learned the wisdom of these words and because of that here is what plays out, "Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall." Proverbs 16:18
I don't try to correct anyone. I've decided that those humble people don't exist. I get into fights because I'm just trying to do me, and there's always some moralist out to take that away on the basis that everything is subjective. This used to be religious people filling that niche, trying to take stuff away because morality was objective. Surely, I thought, if we depose the objectivity people, the subjectivity people won't be able to do that. Nope! Turns out people are fundamentally illogical and don't need a sound basis to impose their dogma on others.
Yes, this does seem to be the case. I give correction to the one who is seeking it. But, I "Do not speak in the ears of the stupid one, For he will despise the wisdom of your words." and "Proverbs 9:7, "The one who corrects a ridiculer invites dishonor, And whoever reproves someone wicked will get hurt."
There are fewer and fewer humble people in the world everyday. Not to say that the religious wack-a-doos back in the centuries before us had a whole lot more humble people and didn't need to be taken down a notch, because they did. Their treatment of many under the old laws that they had were brutal if you weren't from the right pedigree, race, sex, or country. Humility is not mankind's strong suit and kindness to the point of acting is only so-so. There is always some group that thinks they are better in every way. Now, instead of groups, everyone thinks they are the best individual on the planet and they have the only truth that matters, their own. When actually, it makes them weaker for thinking that way and puts them in harms way more often. It's just sad and there is little anyone can do. Despite that, Jehovah's Witnesses still turn over every log and rock looking someone who is humble enough to preach and teach to. Jehovah wants everyone to be offered the chance to get out of this depraved world. (2 Peter 3:9) and since we love our Heavenly Father then we adapt His will as our own. And let me tell ya, in the decades that I have spoken to people from door to door, we hardly find anyone with a humble heart in the USA. I hear JWs in Africa are having the most success but everywhere else, its like trying to get blood from a stone. It might seem like a effort in futility but we press on because we believe even if talk to a million people but just one come to love Jehovah and lives forever, then it was worth the billions of hours that millions of people put into save one person. This is how much we love people and how much we share our Father's vision.
Just the other day I was arguing with a moralising vegan who told me that animal lives outweigh my enjoyment. Yet they have a dog and a cat. Dog food has meat in it. Cat food has to, because cats are obligate carnivores. By having those carnivores instead of letting them die in the shelter, they are valuing their enjoyment over animal lives. If they let the cute, intelligent carnivores that actually make good pets shrivel up and die, plus lives, right? It didn't take long before they got mad and turned out a "How dare you?!"
"The righteous one takes care of his domestic animals, But even the mercy of the wicked is cruel." Proverbs 12:10.
"Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. Just as I gave you the green vegetation, I give them all to you. Only flesh with its life—its blood—you must not eat." Gen 9:3, 4
Chicken is my comfort animal, I'm comforted when I eat one. That's all I have to say about that.
And yeah, I was super duper wrong. I predicted a lot of modern culture in the 90's, but on this particular point I got the bed I wanted and it's sticky and nasty, and now I have to sleep in it.
I talk to many that think mankind can turn it around somehow. That everyone is going to get it together like in Star Trek. But even in Star Trek lore mankind almost comes to it's end in the 21st century due to its hubris. I was right there with you in the 90s saying much of the same thing. I got into politics in the late 90s and early 2000s and thought I could make a difference, get more religious free people in places of power...wow talk about being wrong about something. I got to rub shoulders with people who now are congressmen. They don't care about anything but themselves and learned how they can get what they want out of these crazy people in the world before the world's population turns the earth into a dumpster fire. World leaders know their constituents are psychos and they just ride the waves of their anger to get what they want. It's actually scary brilliant how they do it. It was a congressman that taught me, 'if you don't want something in the news, don't write it down.' I heard my fill. There are a few dreamers that really want to make the world better but they really don't know how to do it and the lobbyist and corruption of the others always crush them. So, about 2010 I abandoned politics forever.
2timothy316 wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 10:04 amWe can't afford to be dogmatic.
This is why I would prefer to talk to a fringe believer than a mainstream one, any day. The mainstream guy doesn't have to have his facts straight. Not only dogmatic but people who know their thinking can't stand up to challenging will avoid the organisation. By and large you will only get people who have strong logical reasons to believe they are correct. Illogical reasons will filter where they are most protected from scrutiny.
Ah, isn't that the truth!? There is nothing anyone can do for such people. They can only help themselves but it will probably take many self-made disasters before they take note that their life formula isn't working. Even then many will not get it before something they put into motion out of ignorance of refusal to listen ruins them.
2timothy316 wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 10:04 amIt does seem like something is in the water that just makes people...nasty. Jehovah's Witnesses have to drink the water too and sometimes we make choices that are not beneficial to anyone. This is the sin that Jehovah's Witnesses believe is in all mankind. All humanity is drawn to what is bad and to rebel against what is good, and you're correct, it is in our bones. (Romans 7:21) However, we are not doomed for it to be master over us, we can be master over sin if we ask for God's help gain master over it. (Gen 4:7)
...
Since mankind has been on earth there a truth, "Man has dominated man to his injury”!
I think true, reasoned atheists like me, think of it in terms of humanity's vile past as filthy apes. It really clicks if you watch social animals like wolves and chimps. You start to realise that this nastiness is something that is strongly encouraged. If you don't have it, you will not get food. Everyone used to think humans were better than that, and they would point to overcoming that vile nature, but at this point I think we're all just physically weak monkeys who can only pretend there is a better, so we can be even worse. Moralism is just the new dominance.
I think humans always go to extremes when describing themselves. To atheists, we're apes. To most religions we are angels in meat bodies. Jehovah's Witnesses and myself believe it's something in the middle. Lower than angels but more than just an animal.
"What is mortal man that you keep him in mind, And a son of man that you take care of him? You made him a little lower than godlike ones, And you crowned him with glory and splendor." Psalms 8:4, 5
"you are worth more than many sparrows.” Matthew 10:29-31
Atheists see no divine help coming for mankind's nasty ways and most religions think so highly of themselves that they don't need divine help or they are divine themselves and instantly forgiven for the nasty ways. Really, both dogmas yield the same result, people making their own way in the world the way they think is best with little or no guidance from anyone or anything.
2timothy316 wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 10:04 amAs humans we have the right to judge some things. Like we judge who our friends should be. We judge for ourselves as to what kind of entertainment we should watch. Really any decision that comes to feeding what could encourage us to do bad things. As one Native American proverb says, 'Everyone has a good wolf and a bad wolf inside them. The one that survives is the one you feed.'
The bad one doesn't need any help. It takes food from the good one easily. Uphill battle.
It's still our internal battle and JWs see this as where we need God's help. "The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb, And with the young goat the leopard will lie down, And the calf and the lion* and the fattened animal will all be together." Isaiah 11:6, 7. JWs believe that while this is describing the world to come, in context is also describing that a person's animalistic qualities can be brought to heel with the knowledge of God.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2018247#h=25:0-27:0
2timothy316 wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 10:04 amThey think they are doing everyone a favor. They have judged us as untrustworthy. But do these folks turn that same light on themselves or the organizations they like? When they do, do they react the same way?
They just get offended. What I start to think is that nobody reasons. Like, at all. Nobody thinks about anything. The other day, Boatsnguitars was arguing with JW about a doctrine, and JW presented the consistent version of that doctrine, and Boat was like, "Yeah but that's only believed by a tiny minority of Christians." And I'm sitting there between laughter and tears because that's not an argument. Ad populum is one of those fallacies that I don't think is always a fallacy, but this is a perfect example of when it is a fallacy, and couldn't be any worse.
Indeed. There is a poster that said that if a majority of people looked at scripture one way and he looked at it a different way, that he would be worried.
viewtopic.php?p=1120957#p1120957
Why why why would anyone look to the majority of people's opinion as a reason to call something true? Ad populum fallacy indeed.
2timothy316 wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 10:04 amAre they really sorry? As you well know no one can read minds. Jehovah's Witnesses are no exception. Even though we catch much finger-wagging and nasty comments about disfellowshipping a person, it's the only thing we are allowed to use to determine what is in a person's heart. I've seen a person cry their eyes out after doing wrong and then go right back to their harmful lifestyle. So, JWs use shunning to determine if the offender is really sorry. If they are really sorry they will continue to show up at meetings and follow all the rules of being disfellowshipped. After a time, then the person is welcomed back to tears and hugs for their determination to show they really are sorry through their act of worship despite their being disfellowshipped.
I actually know of a case in one of the local congregations in my area where there is a baptized JW that is a known drug user and dealer. In the past she had said she was sorry and sobbed many times only to return to their lifestyle of drugs and dealing. What other choice do the elders have but to disfellowship this person to keep the congregation safe and read if they are really sorry. There are literally black SUVs that case their house and the house of their parents. While she still goes to congregation meetings, no one speaks to her. No one has any dealings with them at all. Now, some will call this harsh but disfellowshipping is a last resort in the hopes that the person will change coarse. Sadly, this person hasn't improved and there are indications that despite trying to get them rehab and other help, they are going deeper into a dark path. They have also turned to manipulation to get what they want from anyone. Truly this is what disfellowshipping is for but it only keeps people from harm and tries to correct the course of this person if people follow the instructions at 1 Corinthians 5:11. About 3 years ago when this person was disfellowshipped they called me and I didn't take the call. They left a voice mail about helping find some dog's owner. I didn't return the call. Imagine where I might be if I had allowed this person to stay in contact with me. I might have black SUVs at my house right now.
Yeah there was no lost dog. I know what these kinds of people will do. If there was a dog, she stole it. People around here have to watch their dogs and not put them in the front because drug-addled bums will steal dogs out of peoples' yards, use them to beg, and then abandon them.
What I find ridiculous is that you take flak for kicking people out of your own fellowship, and the people dishing out the flak probably love cancel culture which kicks people out of the entire larger society and that's somehow fair. Sure, mob J.K. Rowling because her definition of female is not the one you like. Make sure you're not friends with anyone who buys any Harry Potter stuff; kick them out of your friend group they're basically Hitler, and you are too if you hang around them. But those JWs disfellowshipping people? OMFG how cruel and heartless!
At least with JWs there is a way back in with full restoration to fellowship with no grudge holding allowed. I have seen this happen twice in my congregation, being there with a person is reinstated and is a wonderful thing. Pent-up hugs for years all come at the person at one time the very day the person is reinstated. Do people around the world do that with the people that admit they are wrong and then they make the correction? I have yet to see it.
2timothy316 wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 10:04 amWell, I guess this is your version of disfellowshipping. However, the grudge holding and demanding double the recompense might backfire if a person truly is sorry in the future. The Bible says we better be ready to be judged as harshly as we judge others. With the person I mentioned above, I have no problems accepting any equal judgement I have decided in following the disfellowshipping arrangement. If I turn into a drug using drug dealer, by all means avoid me at all costs.
Once the person gives me the two coats, I put them in the category of trustworthy and pick up the tab for meals and things. I worry about druggos, and sometimes I half-believe the AA crud I was sold as a kid that they're genetically programmed to be vulnerable to addiction and can't help it. I'm pretty addicted to caffeine but at the same time, if it was steal or deal with headaches, I'll be dealing with the headaches. It's not out of the question that one day someone injects me with a drug that turns me addicted, and it's so strong I can't help myself. I know it's possible because I can't kill myself by deciding not to breathe. If someone defined that air as somebody else's property, then stuck me at the bottom of a pool, I'd come up to breathe. I'd take positive action I knew was wrong and take from others in order to keep myself alive. Even if I knew there were people that needed to be saved up there and limited air for them. The urge to breathe is too strong.
But what I can do is make up for what I do in that state and always give back the two coats. If I don't do that, I judge myself the same.
Crime and punishment. It's a wild game no matter how anyone deals with it. Freedom of choice and a lack of knowing of what is dancing around in another person's head will always make justice a tricky thing.