Better off Without Morality?

[Purple Knight]

For the religious I ask that you exclude God-made morality from this discussion and only consider man-made morality.

Question for Debate: Would we as human beings be better off without the idea that some actions are moral and some are not?

For example, let's use as an example, the idea that homosexual relations are wrong. If you're a religious person you have been asked to exclude this idea from the discussion, so you might be asked to imagine something else, like the idea that rubber duckies are immoral to own.

Rubber duckies being some evil is a bit sillier than homosexual relations, and that's probably because even among those who believe homosexuality is permissible and moral, they can recognise it as something one human does to another, with the potential for harm, and that not every instance of gay sex is automatically good - if it would be pederasty, for example.

But we can imagine a world in which rubber duckies (owning them, rather) causes harm. If they are so desired and demanded that companies cut corners in making them, so that they are routinely poisoning bathwater, or if the rich take resources that would go toward feeding people, and pay a higher price for them, using them to make their rubber duckies, then owning them could conceivably cause harm.

What morality does, at its best, is that it streamlines this process, irons it out, and makes it fair. If rubber duckies are immoral, so be it, but everyone goes together. Either we all stop this business, or no one is forced to. Everyone will have some reason that their rubber duckie does not cause harm and they should be allowed to keep it, but the moral rule, if supported by enough solidarity, will help people just accept it, and not argue about it. We've done this with murder. We reject it and those who commit it, and the sole point of argument seems to be self-defence.

What morality also does is detach the idea of harm from the idea that we should not do this act, and cast the person against rubber duckies as somehow higher than the person who simply wants to keep his own rubber duckie. Anyone looking to be higher can make up a rule, and instantly look down on those breaking that rule. A bully can take someone's bicycle and he'll be wrong, but if he can moralise the idea, bikes are now wrong and he is now a shining crusader for good.

[Bust Nak]

Yes, the problem comes in when you add other people who you might be hurting. But if those people just do what's good for them, and stand up for themselves, and everybody starts from the position of selfishness being okay, it avoids a lot of waste of energy.

In other words you still need people to care about other people. People with lots of energy to spare don't care about avoiding waste. You won't get anywhere unless you "beat people over the head and enforce dominance," as you put it.

[Purple Knight]

In other words you still need people to care about other people. People with lots of energy to spare don't care about avoiding waste. You won't get anywhere unless you "beat people over the head and enforce dominance," as you put it.

My point is, maybe people care about other people because those other people will enforce, to get their way. And maybe we just let that be and maybe it's simpler and wastes less of our time and resources on unnecessary complexity.

[Miles]

John 17:1
17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 11:41-42
Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

1 Thimothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

John 10: 30 " I and the Father are one "

Colossians 2:9 " For in Christ the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form "

Philippians 2:5-6: " You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had though he was God he did not think equality with God as something to cling to "

There is a difference between being God and being made in the likeness and image of God .

I agree, but being made in the likeness and image of God is not the issue. Presently, I only care about those verses that distinguish Jesus FROM god because they give lie to your claim that "Jesus is god."

That there are other verses that say Jesus was god stand in direct contradiction to what I posted, which means that as a believer you have to pick one or the other positions, AND, for reasons of debate, provide a compelling reason for your decision. I, as an atheist, have no such obligation. I simply regard such contradictions as more faulty biblical blather, and not worth bothering with other than to expose unjustified assertions.

HOWEVER, if you've got a compelling reason for disregarding those verse that distinguish Jesus FROM god, essentially declaring them false, and choosing those that present Jesus as god, I'd like to see it.


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[Adonai Yahweh]

There is a difference between being God and being made in the likeness and image of God .

I agree, but being made in the likeness and image of God is not the issue. Presently, I only care about those verses that distinguish Jesus FROM god because they give lie to your claim that "Jesus is god."

That there are other verses that say Jesus was god stand in direct contradiction to what I posted, which means that as a believer you have to pick one or the other positions, AND, for reasons of debate, provide a compelling reason for your decision. I, as an atheist, have no such obligation. I simply regard such contradictions as more faulty biblical blather, and not worth bothering with other than to expose unjustified assertions.

HOWEVER, if you've got a compelling reason for disregarding those verse that distinguish Jesus FROM god, essentially declaring them false, and choosing those that present Jesus as god, I'd like to see it. [/quote]


Mankind is made in the image and likeness of God , Jesus does not have an earthly father . There are no contradictions to the scripture it is just the lack of understanding . You simple just took information without any context . Context to information is very important especially when you are presenting a fact so since you provided scriptural text give the context of the text . Are you are aware of the what the trinity is ? I'll give an example human are individual beings however we have 3 distinct aspects which is the mind , body and soul . If all I can see is your body ... does that mean that you don't have a mind or soul ? I cant see your thoughts , I cant feel your emotions , I can't see your self-awareness . The trinity like humans...there are 3 distinct aspects in one which is Father , the Son and the Holy spirit . Jesus is God in physical form , he came in the physical form as a man because as the father and the holy spirit we would not be able see him or hear his teachings .

[Bust Nak]

My point is, maybe people care about other people because those other people will enforce, to get their way. And maybe we just let that be and maybe it's simpler and wastes less of our time and resources on unnecessary complexity.

It's not any more complex than figuring out which rules to enforce. We can even bypass some of the complexity in that by appealing to our morality, there is no need to figure out the details when we can just outright discard certain ideas as morally unthinkable.

[Purple Knight]

My point is, maybe people care about other people because those other people will enforce, to get their way. And maybe we just let that be and maybe it's simpler and wastes less of our time and resources on unnecessary complexity.

It's not any more complex than figuring out which rules to enforce. We can even bypass some of the complexity in that by appealing to our morality, there is no need to figure out the details when we can just outright discard certain ideas as morally unthinkable.

Yes but, in that bypass, we may be appealing to morality and using it simply as a tool of oppression.

Klingons don't think honour killing is wrong. If we go to their planet and enforce that murder is always wrong, we're oppressing them.

Sometimes we do this to other humans, saying something is morally wrong when someone just wants to have that thing they want, and they can plead all they want that it doesn't affect you, and all you have to do is convince people that their moral intuition is on your side, and boom, you get to oppress that person.

[Miles]

There is a difference between being God and being made in the likeness and image of God .

I agree, but being made in the likeness and image of God is not the issue. Presently, I only care about those verses that distinguish Jesus FROM god because they give lie to your claim that "Jesus is god."

That there are other verses that say Jesus was god stand in direct contradiction to what I posted, which means that as a believer you have to pick one or the other positions, AND, for reasons of debate, provide a compelling reason for your decision. I, as an atheist, have no such obligation. I simply regard such contradictions as more faulty biblical blather, and not worth bothering with other than to expose unjustified assertions.

HOWEVER, if you've got a compelling reason for disregarding those verse that distinguish Jesus FROM god, essentially declaring them false, and choosing those that present Jesus as god, I'd like to see it.

Mankind is made in the image and likeness of God , Jesus does not have an earthly father .

So what? do these address your claim that Jesus is god? Of course they don't.

There are no contradictions to the scripture it is just the lack of understanding . You simple just took information without any context . Context to information is very important especially when you are presenting a fact so since you provided scriptural text give the context of the text .

Fine, then show me the context of the verses I presented that turns them around to make the statement that Jesus is god.

Are you are aware of the what the trinity is ? I'll give an example human are individual beings however we have 3 distinct aspects which is the mind , body and soul . If all I can see is your body ... does that mean that you don't have a mind or soul ? I cant see your thoughts , I cant feel your emotions , I can't see your self-awareness . The trinity like humans...there are 3 distinct aspects in one which is Father , the Son and the Holy spirit . Jesus is God in physical form , he came in the physical form as a man because as the father and the holy spirit we would not be able see him or hear his teachings .

Changing the subject doesn't get you anywhere, nor does making unsupported claims. If this is all you have to offer in support of your claim . . .


Have a nice day.


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[Bust Nak]

Yes but, in that bypass, we may be appealing to morality and using it simply as a tool of oppression.

Klingons don't think honour killing is wrong. If we go to their planet and enforce that murder is always wrong, we're oppressing them.

Sometimes we do this to other humans, saying something is morally wrong when someone just wants to have that thing they want, and they can plead all they want that it doesn't affect you, and all you have to do is convince people that their moral intuition is on your side, and boom, you get to oppress that person.

Why shouldn't evil doers be oppressed?

[Purple Knight]

Why shouldn't evil doers be oppressed?

If they want to live that way, I don't see why we should bother trying to change it.

[Bust Nak]

If they want to live that way, I don't see why we should bother trying to change it.

It's wrong, that's why. I'd wager that coming to that conclusion took me less time, energy and resources than it would to figure out the complexity re: pros and cons of honour killing.