How do Theists explain Matter?

[boatsnguitars]

Theist claim God is immaterial. Materialists claim E=m*c2. That Energy and speed were always in existence, thus Matter. They are the true Trinity.

How do Theists explain an immaterial Being spoke "Let there be light" and it happened without resorting to it being a magical incantation?
How do Theists explain how Matter exists at all?

[brunumb]

So either the universe has a magical creator with access to energy from someplace our laws do not apply, the universe spontaneously leaked in from somewhere like that, or the universe always was in some form. All of these are counterintuitive but the last one is arguably the least so.

From that perspective there was never nothing at all. Back to square one. No?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #1]

I don't see how this is a problem as you haven't pointed any problem out, but I will try to assume the perceived issue.

It seems you are not sure how an immaterial being can be the cause of a material thing. What is the problem, though? Are you saying this entails a contradiction? If so, can you lay that out for us?

It seems you think the cause of a material thing must itself be material, but why? According to the standard model, at least those that think there was a singularity, states that time and space did not exist, yet it does exist now. Time doesn't seem to be a physical thing, yet I bet you are okay with physical stuff somehow causes it to exist.

But then there is the problem of what is material, what is physical. For example, what is an electron really? Is is a negative charge. But as far as we know, it has no volume. And ultimate, according to quantum field theory, everything is just one field. Every force and partial is one large field interacting with itself. Is a field a material, though?

And what about the delayed choice quantum eraser and josephson's junction that show us that particles are actually probability waves? Probability waves are not material. They are literally mathematical functions. They are abstracts, which now land us in the realm of metaphysics.

And then of course, it is possible that we are in a virtual system and that virtual system could easily be the cause of a mind, i.e. God.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #1]

I don't see how this is a problem as you haven't pointed any problem out, but I will try to assume the perceived issue.

It seems you are not sure how an immaterial being can be the cause of a material thing. What is the problem, though? Are you saying this entails a contradiction? If so, can you lay that out for us?

It seems you think the cause of a material thing must itself be material, but why? According to the standard model, at least those that think there was a singularity, states that time and space did not exist, yet it does exist now. Time doesn't seem to be a physical thing, yet I bet you are okay with physical stuff somehow causes it to exist.

But then there is the problem of what is material, what is physical. For example, what is an electron really? Is is a negative charge. But as far as we know, it has no volume. And ultimate, according to quantum field theory, everything is just one field. Every force and partial is one large field interacting with itself. Is a field a material, though?

And what about the delayed choice quantum eraser and josephson's junction that show us that particles are actually probability waves? Probability waves are not material. They are literally mathematical functions. They are abstracts, which now land us in the realm of metaphysics.

And then of course, it is possible that we are in a virtual system and that virtual system could easily be the cause of a mind, i.e. God.

How does something that is non-material create matter? You have mentioned our descriptions of things (for example, your reference to probability waves: Probability waves aren't the reality - the mathematics are what we use to explain the behavior of the Material world.)

[brunumb]

How does something that is non-material create matter?

Add to that, why does something that is non-material create matter?

[boatsnguitars]

How does something that is non-material create matter?

Add to that, why does something that is non-material create matter?

I think we see from the lack of responses that Theists don't care to engage in the topic. They simply assume "God did it" somehow and that's enough for them. Then, they make the mistake of assuming Athiests think "Since there's no God, then whatever happened to make nothing into something must have happened magically" - which does sound equally odd.

Yet, if we propose that the ingredients for Matter were always there in the first place, then there is no magic event needed to create Matter. It also means there doesn't need to be a God.

Given how Theists claim that God performs miracles, leaves signs, etc. - that God is active in our world, yet we see no signs of this other than vague handwaving towards mysterious events - is suspect we'd see the same lack of evidence for God's actions if we witnessed the Big Bang. Theists can't show how God acts in this world, nor can they explain why God doesn't do more (saving people from Tsunamis) - but they want us to believe he created the Universe?

If I saw a kid struggle to set up a Lemonade Stand, I wouldn't also think he could form a Multinational conglomeration. And, Theists haven't even shown that God is setting up a Lemonade stand.

[Mutant]

Great question. I understand it as asking for the origin of all things. Just from observation it seems everything has a beginning. There seems to be a lot of mathematics that explain how things work. People have discovered the various forms of science and there is a pattern that can be explained mathematically. Maybe a better question would be how do you explain the existence of mathematics?

How do I explain matter? It was created.

[The Barbarian]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #1]

I don't see how this is a problem as you haven't pointed any problem out, but I will try to assume the perceived issue.

It seems you are not sure how an immaterial being can be the cause of a material thing. What is the problem, though? Are you saying this entails a contradiction? If so, can you lay that out for us?

It seems you think the cause of a material thing must itself be material, but why? According to the standard model, at least those that think there was a singularity, states that time and space did not exist, yet it does exist now. Time doesn't seem to be a physical thing, yet I bet you are okay with physical stuff somehow causes it to exist.

But then there is the problem of what is material, what is physical. For example, what is an electron really? Is is a negative charge. But as far as we know, it has no volume. And ultimate, according to quantum field theory, everything is just one field. Every force and partial is one large field interacting with itself. Is a field a material, though?

And what about the delayed choice quantum eraser and josephson's junction that show us that particles are actually probability waves? Probability waves are not material. They are literally mathematical functions. They are abstracts, which now land us in the realm of metaphysics.

And then of course, it is possible that we are in a virtual system and that virtual system could easily be the cause of a mind, i.e. God.

I think you're basically correct in the "virtual system" idea.

[boatsnguitars]

Great question. I understand it as asking for the origin of all things. Just from observation it seems everything has a beginning. There seems to be a lot of mathematics that explain how things work. People have discovered the various forms of science and there is a pattern that can be explained mathematically. Maybe a better question would be how do you explain the existence of mathematics?

How do I explain matter? It was created.

Or was it discovered?

How can something non-material make matter? Magic?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #25

Yet, if we propose that the ingredients for Matter were always there in the first place, then there is no magic event needed to create Matter. It also means there doesn't need to be a God.

"If the universe is not contingent then we don’t need God to explain its existence."

viewtopic.php?t=40592

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #1]

I don't see how this is a problem as you haven't pointed any problem out, but I will try to assume the perceived issue.

It seems you are not sure how an immaterial being can be the cause of a material thing. What is the problem, though? Are you saying this entails a contradiction? If so, can you lay that out for us?

It seems you think the cause of a material thing must itself be material, but why? According to the standard model, at least those that think there was a singularity, states that time and space did not exist, yet it does exist now. Time doesn't seem to be a physical thing, yet I bet you are okay with physical stuff somehow causes it to exist.

But then there is the problem of what is material, what is physical. For example, what is an electron really? Is is a negative charge. But as far as we know, it has no volume. And ultimate, according to quantum field theory, everything is just one field. Every force and partial is one large field interacting with itself. Is a field a material, though?

And what about the delayed choice quantum eraser and josephson's junction that show us that particles are actually probability waves? Probability waves are not material. They are literally mathematical functions. They are abstracts, which now land us in the realm of metaphysics.

And then of course, it is possible that we are in a virtual system and that virtual system could easily be the cause of a mind, i.e. God.

I think you're basically correct in the "virtual system" idea.

Can someone explain the "virtual world" idea to me. I know it's quite popular now (in the age of computers and virtual reality and the Matrix) but can someone point to me the science behind it?