Jesus on Trial

Argue for and against Christianity

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POI
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Jesus on Trial

Post #1

Post by POI »

Who are we to judge Jesus? I mean, we are all imperfect sinners, right? How are we to judge the one who came to redeem us? Maybe we should instead just say "thank you, worship him, and trust that his ways are better than our ways". Well, is it really this straightforward?

Let's step back a bit and examine the reality of the situation here.

-- Jesus writes nothing down himself
-- Jesus relies upon others, (fallible beings), to write down what he says
-- Jesus introduces concepts without clarification (like 'hell')
-- Jesus relies upon others to report he rose from a grave

Regardless of if you are a skeptic to him being a Messiah or not, the (4) bullet points above seem fairly universal.

For debate:

1) Was Jesus pleased with his plan?
2) Did his plan go exactly like he wanted?
3) Did Jesus intend for his words to be heavily debated, (because they are open for interpretation), even by believers, until he comes back?
4) Is Jesus okay with gay sex, being he really mentions nothing about it; even though his dad detests it?
5) Jesus hints at the concept of hell. Is Jesus pleased with the message left behind about this topic alone?
6) Does Jesus rather you to come to him by <credulity/faith (or) instead by being convinced with hard evidence>?

So much to discuss.... But the take-away seems to be this.... He came to create/allow a passageway for humans to be saved. But really left with the public wondering, how do we really get to Jesus? Also, how do we follow Jesus, when he mentions nothing of topics his father instructed, like "slavery" and "gay sex"?

** Seems he left a mess. Was this his intent, or was he not very prepared, or was he really not that wise, or other? **
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Jesus on Trial

Post #2

Post by Miles »

POI wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:11 am So much to discuss.... But the take-away seems to be this.... He came to create/allow a passageway for humans to be saved. But really left with the public wondering, how do we really get to Jesus? Also, how do we follow Jesus, when he mentions nothing of topics his father instructed, like "slavery" and "gay sex"?
This is what Christians claim, although there is no supporting evidence this is actually the case.

Which is why we have 200 Christian denominations in the USA, and 45,000 denominations globally.

** Seems he left a mess. Was this his intent, or was he not very prepared, or was he really not that wise, or other? **
Christianity is a mess, which, IMO, speaks of either an incompetent god, OR this is simply how he likes his entertainment: The video game of life writ large. Why else let it play out as it has?



.............. Image


.

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Re: Jesus on Trial

Post #3

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I am certainly of the view that Bible apologetics consists not so much of presenting evidence that the Bible, God and Jesus are true, though they begin by claiming it is evidence at first, but thereafter excusing and denying that it is actually evidence against. The Resurrection -accounts being a recent example: presented as proof that the resurrection happened, they can be shown not only to not be evidence that there was a bodily resurrection but evidence there wasn't one or there would have been a coherent original story, rather than contradictory ones.

What did we get other than excuses - The Marys went different ways, Mary did not go into the tomb, a trip to Galilee could be shoehorned into 40 days spent talking with Jesus in Jerusalem, which were rather contradicted by what the Bible actually says, anyway, and silence after that, or appealing to some Authority.

Again, I'd love to hear from some deconvert who was an apologist for the Bible to explain exactly how they thought. When all the evidence was against the Christian claim, was crickets the affirmation of faith? I do recall some hopeful remark (May have been on Qora) that one day evidence would be found that would somehow validate everything they believed. Of course, that isn't the way evidence and logic works (one goes with the best explanation there is at the time) but it certainly is how Faithbased apologetics works. "I know it's true on Faith, and one day you doubters and disbelievers will see the evidence, even if we have to wait until Jesus comes."

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Re: Jesus on Trial

Post #4

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:11 am ...
-- Jesus introduces concepts without clarification (like 'hell')
...
What is unclear about hell for you?
POI wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:11 am 1) Was Jesus pleased with his plan?
2) Did his plan go exactly like he wanted?
3) Did Jesus intend for his words to be heavily debated, (because they are open for interpretation), even by believers, until he comes back?
4) Is Jesus okay with gay sex, being he really mentions nothing about it; even though his dad detests it?
5) Jesus hints at the concept of hell. Is Jesus pleased with the message left behind about this topic alone?
6) Does Jesus rather you to come to him by <credulity/faith (or) instead by being convinced with hard evidence>?
....
1) 2) 5) I believe so.

3) I think Jesus also wants people to be free, which means they can debate about anything. And I think debate is a good thing.

4) Jesus didn't have to comment all issues, because he said:

"Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:17-19

Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. A second likewise is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat. 22:37-39

6) Jesus tells eternal life is for righteous. Therefore, I think righteousness is what is required.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

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Re: Jesus on Trial

Post #5

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But here's the ting; Luke 16 has it: 16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery."

Compare, or contrast,rather, that with Matthew "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

It is not the same, so how can you know that Jesus said one rather than the other, or either of them? This is the thing: arguing from the Bible is arguing from evidence that isn't going to stand up tocourtroom scrutiny.

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Re: Jesus on Trial

Post #6

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:55 pm But here's the ting; Luke 16 has it: 16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery."

Compare, or contrast,rather, that with Matthew "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

It is not the same,...
Why they should be exactly the same? I think they both are valid at the same time.

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Re: Jesus on Trial

Post #7

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1213 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:32 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:55 pm But here's the ting; Luke 16 has it: 16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery."

Compare, or contrast,rather, that with Matthew "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

It is not the same,...
Why they should be exactly the same? I think they both are valid at the same time.
But the problem is, if these were exactly or even substantially the same, they could be credited as reliable, but they are different so one or both is unreliable. And don't forget that this isn't stand alone - Mark and John have no such thing so we are looking at common additional material here (all of apiece with the 'sermon' material). With the 'clean hands'rule, many worse contradictions here means that this one cannot be so easily excused. Never mind God's inerrant word, we are talking about contradictory human fabrications which do not deserve a scrap of credit, respect or belief.

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Re: Jesus on Trial

Post #8

Post by Miles »

POI wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:11 am Who are we to judge Jesus? I mean, we are all imperfect sinners, right? How are we to judge the one who came to redeem us? Maybe we should instead just say "thank you, worship him, and trust that his ways are better than our ways". Well, is it really this straightforward?

Let's step back a bit and examine the reality of the situation here.

-- Jesus writes nothing down himself
-- Jesus relies upon others, (fallible beings), to write down what he says
-- Jesus introduces concepts without clarification (like 'hell')
-- Jesus relies upon others to report he rose from a grave

Regardless of if you are a skeptic to him being a Messiah or not, the (4) bullet points above seem fairly universal.
But don't forget, all scripture, including everything written about Jesus and what he said, must be accurate because

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. "

and

Proverbs 30:5-6
"Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar. "


For debate:

1) Was Jesus pleased with his plan?
2) Did his plan go exactly like he wanted?
3) Did Jesus intend for his words to be heavily debated, (because they are open for interpretation), even by believers, until he comes back?
4) Is Jesus okay with gay sex, being he really mentions nothing about it; even though his dad detests it?
5) Jesus hints at the concept of hell. Is Jesus pleased with the message left behind about this topic alone?
6) Does Jesus rather you to come to him by <credulity/faith (or) instead by being convinced with hard evidence>?

So much to discuss....
I never got the inside dope on any of this, so I'll have to bow out on any discussion of the particulars.

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Re: Jesus on Trial

Post #9

Post by TRANSPONDER »

None of us have the inside dope, but it's like those Egyptian inscriptions. Like the Bible, 'They are not a history book'. They are propaganda and we know they are. Yet we have to try to read between the lines, not dismiss them as "Hearsay" ;) or just accept everything it says..

Was there a battle of Kadesh? Must have been. Was it between Egypt and Hittites? Reliably so. Was it a draw, pretty much? Looks like it, even though I've seen claims that one tr the other side got control of Canaan (looks to me like Egypt did draw a line to Hittite expansion). And we can even credit a lot of the events like the Egyptians being caught napping because their units were strung out but (because of the victors looting the camp - a common problem with early battles) the last division caught the Hittites stuffing their pockets with loot.

So the problem I see with the gospels is, is there a factual basis? If so, how much? We know the argument that 'if they all said the same thing, atheists would say it was collusion'. It a valid point but the problem is that it is dismissive; it is not saying: 'Let's consider what we can credit and what we can't', but 'Let's dismiss that problem of discrepancy and we - all should accept the whole thing'. This is why I absolutely do think there was a Jesus who was crucified by Pilate. We even get confirmation by Paul who I also think existed and his earlier letters at least are genuine. But you have to see through his propaganda, of which there is a lot.

In the same way, we have to use what info. and judgement as we have to decide what is true and what isn't. Like the Passover release is dubious. There is no such thing known. But just saying 'it wasn't true' doesn't go far enough. The question is, why is it there at all? Pilate had a reason to release Jesus, he hadn't done nothing wrong Pilate says. And there's another bit of info. He had seen that business in the Temple (if true) which had to be bigger than a few tables kicked over and Jesus walking away and doing some preaching. Pilate was on duty with 1,000 troops at festival time. He knew what Jesus had done and surely grabbed him then, or later if Jesus escaped. There is also the point that the Temple dust - up is never, ever, mentioned as a possible charge while the Sanhedrim try to stick a charge on Jesus (1). That to me is a red flag that this was the actual charge, but the Christians who wrote that first adaptation of the story didn't want to use it. There is more, but the point is that the reliability of the story itself is under question before we even get to considering it Theologically or morally or as arguably doing what Christianity maintains it did.

Essentially, we have to consider whether the suspects are telling half -truths and we just have to dismiss their self -serving story before we start looking for the truths,

Of course, :D I'm not saying 'don't discuss that'. Showing the plan as not really credible has its' place in raising a whole string of doubts and questions about just that bit of the Bible.

(1) the blasphemy charge is more evidence of Christian authorship as it makes no sense in Jewish terms, only in Christian terms, just as Herod in hearing of a kind of the Jews would have his family and nobles investigated, not rush to scripture. Only a Christian would write that.

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Re: Jesus on Trial

Post #10

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:55 am
1213 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:32 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:55 pm But here's the ting; Luke 16 has it: 16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery."

Compare, or contrast,rather, that with Matthew "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

It is not the same,...
Why they should be exactly the same? I think they both are valid at the same time.
But the problem is, if these were exactly or even substantially the same, they could be credited as reliable, but they are different..
I agree that they are different. But I don't see any reason to think they should be the same. Jesus could have said them both and they both can be true at the same time. Bible has basically witness testimonies, they are never identical and I don't think they need to be. All of them combined gives us larger image of what happened at that time. If they would be identical, it could be said that they are not genuine, or they are copies of one.

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