Are Lies Immoral? If so, Why?

[Purple Knight]

Question for debate: Is lying inherently wrong? If so, why?

Christians believe God is perfect and that God doesn't lie. Is this simply a choice, is it necessary for us lesser beings to be able to trust, is it itself a deception, or is it an inherent part of perfection that a being should not lie?

Is it possible that lying is wrong for us, but not God, or vice-versa?

Is it uniquely or especially wrong to lie to a child? Or perhaps uniquely or especially permissible?

[Miles]

As I said, the "NLV Bible": New Life Version Copyright © 1969, 2003 by Barbour Publishing, Inc.

Jeremiah 20:7
O Lord, You have lied to me and I was fooled.

Is this the only bible you have come across that makes such a translational choice for Jer 20:7 ?

Yes it is, but keep in mind that this from a list of only 55 of the "More than 100 complete translations into English [that] have been written"
source: Wikipedia

Other bibles use

deceivedest me
persuaded me
enticed me
induced me
misled me
coerced me
tricked me
seduced me
pushed me

.

[JehovahsWitness]

As I said, the "NLV Bible": New Life Version Copyright © 1969, 2003 by Barbour Publishing, Inc.

Jeremiah 20:7
O Lord, You have lied to me and I was fooled.

Is this the only bible you have come across that makes such a translational choice for Jer 20:7 ?

Yes it is ...

Thank you.

KJ21
O Lord, Thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived; Thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed. I am in derision daily; every one mocketh me.

BRG
O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

CSB
You deceived me, Lord, and I was deceived. You seized me and prevailed. I am a laughingstock all the time; everyone ridicules me.

DRA
Thou hast deceived me, O Lord, and I am deceived: thou hast been stronger than I, and thou hast prevailed. I am become a laughing-stock all the day, all scoff at me.

ESV
O Lord, you have deceived me, and I was deceived; you are stronger than I, and you have prevailed. I have become a laughingstock all the day; everyone mocks me.

ESVUK
O Lord, you have deceived me, and I was deceived; you are stronger than I, and you have prevailed. I have become a laughing-stock all the day; everyone mocks me.

GNV
O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I am deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily: everyone mocketh me.

GW
O Lord, you have deceived me, and I was deceived. You overpowered me and won. I’ve been made fun of all day long. Everyone mocks me.

GNT
Lord, you have deceived me, and I was deceived. You are stronger than I am, and you have overpowered me. Everyone makes fun of me; they laugh at me all day long.

HCSB
You deceived me, Lord, and I was deceived. You seized me and prevailed. I am a laughingstock all the time; everyone ridicules me.

ISV
You deceived me, Lord, and I’ve been deceived. You overpowered me, and you prevailed. I’ve become a laughing stock all day long, and everyone mocks me.

KJV
O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived; thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

AKJV
O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

[Purple Knight]

de·ceive
verb: deceive; 3rd person present:
(of a person) cause (someone) to believe something that is not true,

I believe that causing someone to believe something that is not true entails lying.

lied; lying ˈlī-iŋ
intransitive verb
1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2: to create a false or misleading impression

These definitions paint lying and deceit as very, very different.

Not "very, very different," just "different." ... And if you're aiming for an honest comparison here the two words are not "lying" and "deceit," but "Lying" and "deceive"

.

I would naturally pair lying with deception, and lying with deceiving. But I don't think it matters that much. My point was that it's an instance of something that's different to the person doing it, but not to the person it got done to.

[Bust Nak]

You shall not steal nor lie, nor deceive to one another. What's you've described is deception without technically lying.

Yes, I know.

Earlier you mentioned:

- destroys trust
- wrecks relationships
- encourages corruption
- endangers lives
- perverts justice

as some of the reasons why lying is immoral. All 5 reasons apply to deception too. So what makes deceiving people acceptable but lying immoral?

[JehovahsWitness]

Earlier you mentioned:

- destroys trust
- wrecks relationships
- encourages corruption
- endangers lives
- perverts justice

...

Yes lying does that.

Lying ...

- destroys trust
- wrecks relationships
- encourages corruption
- endangers lives
- perverts justice
...

What's you've described is deception without technically lying.

.... All 5 reasons apply to deception too.

Not necessarily. If it did God would never be spoken of as fooling/deceiving [ * ] anyone and that is not the case. (See my posts #49-52)
viewtopic.php?p=1125794#p1125794




JW



[ * ]

... Other bibles use

JER 20:7

deceivedest me
persuaded me
enticed me
induced me
misled me
coerced me
tricked me
seduced me
pushed me

[Purple Knight]

Not necessarily. If it did God would never be spoken of as fooling/deceiving [ * ] anyone and that is not the case. (See my posts #49-52)

I completely follow the idea that surprise parties are an example of deception that is not malicious. And we can say God is never malicious. So while it may be necessary for us not to have that tool, it's perfectly fine to possess for someone who will never abuse it. Okay, so far that scans.

But isn't the same true of lying? What would be the point in God never lying?

[JehovahsWitness]

Not necessarily. If it did God would never be spoken of as fooling/deceiving [ * ] anyone and that is not the case. (See my posts #49-52)

I completely follow the idea that surprise parties are an example of deception that is not malicious. And we can say God is never malicious. So while it may be necessary for us not to have that tool, it's perfectly fine to possess for someone who will never abuse it. Okay, so far that scans.

But isn't the same true of lying? ...

No, it isn't. The bible presents God as allowing people to be deceived by their own misconceptions, so any "deception" that arises is from their own delusion- it does not originate with him , He just manipulates the situation they create themselves . A lie on the otherhand, originates entirely with the liar and a God of truth cannot initiate that which is untrue as it would diminish his trustworthiness for the righteous.

One can "outsmart" (outmanoeuver/fool) evil with good; lying is becoming yourself that which you are fighting against; not the same thing.

[Bust Nak]

- destroys trust
- wrecks relationships
- encourages corruption
- endangers lives
- perverts justice
... apply to deception too.

Not necessarily.

The same is also true for lying, the reasons you listed not necessarily apply to lying: lies can, but does not always destroys trust; can, but does not always wrecks relationships, encourages corruption, endangers lives, perverts justice. What reasons do you for singling lying out from deception, other than your religious conviction re: "If it did God would never...?"

[Purple Knight]

Not necessarily. If it did God would never be spoken of as fooling/deceiving [ * ] anyone and that is not the case. (See my posts #49-52)

I completely follow the idea that surprise parties are an example of deception that is not malicious. And we can say God is never malicious. So while it may be necessary for us not to have that tool, it's perfectly fine to possess for someone who will never abuse it. Okay, so far that scans.

But isn't the same true of lying? ...

No, it isn't. The bible presents God as allowing people to be deceived by their own misconceptions, so any "deception" that arises is from their own delusion- it does not originate with him , He just manipulates the situation they create themselves . A lie on the otherhand, originates entirely with the liar and a God of truth cannot initiate that which is untrue as it would diminish his trustworthiness for the righteous.

One can "outsmart" (outmanoeuver/fool) evil with good; lying is becoming yourself that which you are fighting against; not the same thing.

So, someone with no misconceptions would be able to trust God. Someone who has at least one misconception would always be able to be deceived. Is that accurate?

[JehovahsWitness]

Not necessarily. If it did God would never be spoken of as fooling/deceiving [ * ] anyone and that is not the case. (See my posts #49-52)

I completely follow the idea that surprise parties are an example of deception that is not malicious. And we can say God is never malicious. So while it may be necessary for us not to have that tool, it's perfectly fine to possess for someone who will never abuse it. Okay, so far that scans.

But isn't the same true of lying? ...

No, it isn't. The bible presents God as allowing people to be deceived by their own misconceptions, so any "deception" that arises is from their own delusion- it does not originate with him , He just manipulates the situation they create themselves . A lie on the otherhand, originates entirely with the liar and a God of truth cannot initiate that which is untrue as it would diminish his trustworthiness for the righteous.

One can "outsmart" (outmanoeuver/fool) evil with good; lying is becoming yourself that which you are fighting against; not the same thing.

So, someone with no misconceptions would be able to trust God. Someone who has at least one misconception would always be able to be deceived. Is that accurate?

Being free from misconceptions, at least where God is concerned, is a matter of education; the wicked and the willfully ignorant reject divine education, the humble and the teachable do not. The result of the above is that the wicked and the ignorant do not trust God; the meek, humble, teachable people do. One of the many reasons for the latter is that biblically speaking, they learn from personal experience that God never lies and if He "fools" them it's to throw them a "surprise party".