Democrats for DeSantis

[historia]

Consider this argument:

• PREMISE 1: Donald Trump poses a unique threat to American democracy.
• PREMISE 2: One of the major ways to avert that threat is for Trump to lose the Republican nomination for president.
• PREMISE 3: Ron DeSantis has the best chance to defeat Trump in the Republican primary.
• CONCLUSION: Democrats, Independents, and "never Trump" Republicans should support DeSantis in the Republican primary.

Question for debate:

Do you agree with the above argument?

If not, which premises (or assumptions underlying them) do you think are wrong?

[historia]

As I see it the Democratic win will be a breeze.

What if Joe Biden develops a serious medical condition in 2024 and Harris is substituted as the nominee? Does she breeze to victory?

What if Republicans wake up and see Trump for what he really is, a racist, rapist, who doesn't hesitate to lie when it's to his personal benefit? What if both Trump and Desantis get run over by a "Vote Biden" truck? What if the GOP has a catastrophic meltdown and decide to run Doug Burgum? What if a tsunami hits the GOP party feting it's prospective candidates, sending them all to the hospital with major injuries. What if . . . . What if . . . . what if . . . .

That doesn't answer my question, Miles.

If Biden has to drop out of the race at some point and Harris becomes the Democratic nominee, does she breeze to victory?

[Clownboat]

What if Republicans wake up and see Trump for what he really is, a racist, rapist, who doesn't hesitate to lie when it's to his personal benefit? What if both Trump and Desantis get run over by a "Vote Biden" truck? What if the GOP has a catastrophic meltdown and decide to run Doug Burgum? What if a tsunami hits the GOP party feting it's prospective candidates, sending them all to the hospital with major injuries. What if . . . . What if . . . . what if . . . . As someone once said,

"As I see it the Democratic win will be a breeze."

.

I have to be honest that I don't follow this stuff very closely. Who did Trump rape?

Side question... Do you know or care about Trump's political policies, or is all of that irrelevant because he is a racist rapist? I continually hear name calling back and forth about Trump and Biden. What is in short supply from where I sit is valid political complaints (this very well could be due to my lack of following this stuff I admit).

Out of curiosity. If you needed heart surgery and found what you thought was a qualified surgeon, would you refuse to have this surgeon help you if you were to find out that he cheated on his wife, or would that be irrelevant when considering the job the surgeon is to perform on you? (This is not a loaded question, just a gauge).

[Miles]

What if Republicans wake up and see Trump for what he really is, a racist, rapist, who doesn't hesitate to lie when it's to his personal benefit? What if both Trump and Desantis get run over by a "Vote Biden" truck? What if the GOP has a catastrophic meltdown and decide to run Doug Burgum? What if a tsunami hits the GOP party feting it's prospective candidates, sending them all to the hospital with major injuries. What if . . . . What if . . . . what if . . . . As someone once said,

"As I see it the Democratic win will be a breeze."

.

I have to be honest that I don't follow this stuff very closely. Who did Trump rape?

My mistake for taking the headline from the New York Times:

"Trump Rape Lawsuit Jury
Finds Trump Liable for Sexual
Abuse and Defamation"
source

as indicating he was guilty of it. He was not,"

Side question... Do you know or care about Trump's political policies, or is all of that irrelevant because he is a racist rapist?

Having been corrected---thank you---I no longer think of him as a proven rapist, but rather a convicted sexual abuser. And because his politics changes with his needs, I'm not sure what his exact policies are, other than to **** America if he can make a dime out of it.

Out of curiosity. If you needed heart surgery and found what you thought was a qualified surgeon, would you refuse to have this surgeon help you if you were to find out that he cheated on his wife, or would that be irrelevant when considering the job the surgeon is to perform on you? (This is not a loaded question, just a gauge).

It would be irrelevant'

.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to historia in post #26

Have you seen the way DeSantis is running Florida?

Yes. Are you just telling me you don't like his policies?

Are you telling me that you DO like his policies?

Do you naively expect Trump's supporters to sit out if DeSantis is on their ticket instead? Or do you just consider DeSantis the "best worst"?

[Purple Knight]

Do you agree with the above argument?

Well, yes. It's perfectly valid.

However it's compromising like that, and thus the knowledge that people will compromise like that because they ought, that makes democracy not work.

Imagine if the perfect candidate arose. You could have a world where every last voter agreed with every policy and wanted him in, but no one voted for him because nobody thought he could win and concluded it was more important making sure that the very worst candidate didn't win.

In such a world, you never have to defeat anyone on policy. You just have to convince them that your opponent is unpopular.

[historia]

What "danger" comes from helping DeSantis defeat Trump in the Republican primary?

Have you seen the way DeSantis is running Florida?

Yes. Are you just telling me you don't like his policies?

Are you telling me that you DO like his policies?

If PREMISE 1 is true, then DeSantis' policy preferences are irrelevant.

If Trump poses a unique threat to American democracy, as PREMISE 1 states, then any candidate who does not pose a threat to American democracy would be infinitely preferential to Trump, even if you disagree with every one of his or her social and economic policy prescriptions.

So, if you're telling me that DeSantis "could turn out to be considerably worse" than Trump or that it is somehow "dangerous" to support DeSantis over Trump in the Republican primary, then it appears you are judging the two candidates solely on their ability to implement policies you don't like, instead of viewing Trump as a unique threat to American democracy.

In other words, you don't agree with PREMISE 1.

Do you naively expect Trump's supporters to sit out if DeSantis is on their ticket instead?

The argument in the OP concerns supporting DeSantis in the GOP primary, so this odd question, which seem to be about the general election, is misplaced.

[Miles]

Do you agree with the above argument?

Well, yes. It's perfectly valid.

Actually, it isn't valid at all. For one thing, every term in a conclusion must appear in at least one of the premises. The term "Democrats, Independents, and "never Trump" Republicans" doesn't appear in any premise.

.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to historia in post #36

If Trump poses a unique threat to American democracy, as PREMISE 1 states, then any candidate who does not pose a threat to American democracy would be infinitely preferential to Trump, even if you disagree with every one of his or her social and economic policy prescriptions.

You keep referring to Trump as posing a "unique" threat, as if only a unique threat is to be avoided.

You also seem to lump DeSantis in with "any candidate who does not pose a threat to American democracy". You said that you've seen the way he runs Florida, so if you don't think he poses a threat to American democracy, I guess that answers my question. You do seem to be telling me that you like his policies (by all means, correct me if I'm wrong).

https://www.commondreams.org/news/desan ... in-florida

https://www.commondreams.org/news/desan ... gn-finance

[historia]

Do you agree with the above argument?

Well, yes. It's perfectly valid.

Actually, it isn't valid at all. For one thing, every term in a conclusion must appear in at least one of the premises. The term "Democrats, Independents, and "never Trump" Republicans" doesn't appear in any premise.

I think this is implied in PREMISE 2. But if we want to be extra formal about things, we can spell that out:

PREMISE 2b: In order for Trump to lose the Republican nomination, Democrats, Independents, and "never Trump" Republicans will need to support his top Republican challenger.

[historia]

If Trump poses a unique threat to American democracy, as PREMISE 1 states, then any candidate who does not pose a threat to American democracy would be infinitely preferential to Trump, even if you disagree with every one of his or her social and economic policy prescriptions.

You keep referring to Trump as posing a "unique" threat, as if only a unique threat is to be avoided.

More specifically, PREMISE 1 states Trump is a unique threat to American democracy.

A threat to American democracy is an existential threat to the country that takes precedence over any policy proscriptions you or I happen to dislike.

You also seem to lump DeSantis in with "any candidate who does not pose a threat to American democracy".

Yes, I also asked you previously how DeSantis was a threat to American democracy, and you didn't answer the question.

You said that you've seen the way he runs Florida, so if you don't think he poses a threat to American democracy, I guess that answers my question. You do seem to be telling me that you like his policies (by all means, correct me if I'm wrong).

So, DeSantis signing a strict immigration law passed by the Florida legislature is not a threat to American democracy. It may be an ill-advised policy economically, but ill-advised policies are not a threat to democracy.

Trump refusing to accept the outcome of a free and fair election, pressuring state officials to overturn the popular vote, pressuring federal officials to throw out electoral votes, fomenting a mob to attack the Capitol, and now continuing efforts to undermine the credibility of our electoral system are a threat to American democracy itself.

This is why I'm pointing out that DeSantis' policy preferences are irrelevant to PREMISE 1. I like some of his policies and dislike others. I like some of Trump's policies and dislike others. I like some of Biden's policies and dislike others. Those policies and my preferences are all irrelevant to PREMISE 1.