Democrats for DeSantis

[historia]

Consider this argument:

• PREMISE 1: Donald Trump poses a unique threat to American democracy.
• PREMISE 2: One of the major ways to avert that threat is for Trump to lose the Republican nomination for president.
• PREMISE 3: Ron DeSantis has the best chance to defeat Trump in the Republican primary.
• CONCLUSION: Democrats, Independents, and "never Trump" Republicans should support DeSantis in the Republican primary.

Question for debate:

Do you agree with the above argument?

If not, which premises (or assumptions underlying them) do you think are wrong?

[Miles]

Consider this argument:

• PREMISE 1: Donald Trump poses a unique threat to American democracy.
• PREMISE 2: One of the major ways to avert that threat is for Trump to lose the Republican nomination for president.
• PREMISE 3: Ron DeSantis has the best chance to defeat Trump in the Republican primary.
• CONCLUSION: Democrats, Independents, and "never Trump" Republicans should support DeSantis in the Republican primary.

Why should they?

See PREMISE 1.

As for your conclusion: "Democrats, Independents, and "never Trump" Republicans should support DeSantis in the Republican primary," keep in mind that Democrats can only vote in a Republican primary it they reside in one of the 15 states with an open primary.

"Support" can include donations or volunteering.

Also, the first primaries are nine months away. Independents and Democrats have plenty of time to register as Republicans in order to vote in the Republican primary, especially when the Democratic presidential primary will likely not be competitive, given they have the incumbent.

In as much as it appears the Republicans seem hellbent on running a looser for president, all the Democrats need do is polish the White House silver while Trump's bid collapses. By default, running either Trump or DeSantis puts the election in the lap of the Democrats.

.

[Athetotheist]

DeSantis is Trump with brains. He could turn out to be considerably worse.

So you disagree with PREMISE 1?

PREMISE 1: Donald Trump poses a unique threat to American democracy.

So your solution is to exchange one threat for another?

The Trump effect is merely a product of a system which is dysfunctional throughout. What you propose is another version of the old "change the system from within" plan which has always failed to change the system.

The system won't change until we change systems. "Representative" government has failed us and should be replaced with some form of participatory government in which the people are more directly involved in making decisions.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Miles in post #11

In as much as it appears the Republicans seem hellbent on running a looser for president, all the Democrats need do is polish the White House silver while Trump's bid collapses. By default, running either Trump or DeSantis puts the election in the lap of the Democrats.

Isn't that what the Dems thought about Trump in 2016?

You're forgetting about the Electoral College.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to historia in post #10

What "danger" comes from helping DeSantis defeat Trump in the Republican primary?

Have you seen the way DeSantis is running Florida?

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #11

In as much as it appears the Republicans seem hellbent on running a looser for president, all the Democrats need do is polish the White House silver while Trump's bid collapses. By default, running either Trump or DeSantis puts the election in the lap of the Democrats.

Isn't that what the Dems thought about Trump in 2016?

Yeah, they underestimated his power to snow people. Who knew so many from the bottom half of the IQ scale would know how to vote.

You're forgetting about the Electoral College.

Not at all. Of the 538 electoral votes, currently the Dems have 247 and the Reps 235, with 56 up for grabs. So the question to ask yourself is, with 270 electoral votes needed to win and considering the mess Trump and GOP continue to make of the party, how difficult is it going for the Democrats to be to pick up the needed extra 23 votes to win verses the Reps 35? As I see it the Democratic win will be a breeze.



.

[boatsnguitars]

I would agree if it weren't for the obvious insanity surrounding the GOP,

I doesn't seem that I can have a political discussion with you for the reasons I alluded to earlier.
Be well and I trust those insane GOP people wont get you in your sleep tonight.

Your position is just as much an "Us v Them".

You would need to show that you speak the truth as I understand Us vs Them to be cult thinking and strive (not always successfully) to avoid such reasoning.
For clarity, my position was (copy/paste): "I notice that often people talk passionately about politics like some do about their preferred god concept. I assume humans use the same part of our brains for both and we should be cautious to not let our emotions control out thinking."

I avoid such reasoning because as I said, it is all to easy to label the other side as lost/corrupt/insane/immoral/incompetent/power-hungry/bigoted/hateful/misogynist/racist/irresponsible and then I don't even have to consider an opposing position if it in fact it might have some merit. The Us's get more 'us' and the Them's get more 'them' and the division only increases.

I'm not here to tell you how to politics though. You do you.

I wonder, if a person has marked you as "Them" - and they've made a point to eradicate you - is that person still an "Us" to you? Do you simply not believe there are Us's and Them's, or that you don't like the general idea. The latter is fine - I agree in principle - but in practice, there are people who are working against Us AND Them.

I have to wonder what you think the government and politics is for?

Let's take a simple example:

Climate Change:
The GOP since 1964, has had a history of being Conservative and ignoring science in favor of Conservative Ideology (which is profoundly anti-science). They sided with Philip Morris and their "science" that smoking didn't cause cancer. They didn't believe HIV caused AIDS. They didn't believe that fossil fuels were causing Climate Change.
For over 50 years they have literally slowed the progress we needed to avoid the impacts were are seeing now - and they are going to get worse. We are still creating more carbon. Increasingly more (though the rate has marginally slowed).

The GOP was instrumental in a few, very key and very specific things that has led us to this point:
1. They demonized Gore and his "An Inconvenient Truth" which has proved to be completely accurate.
2. They were able to get the judiciary involved in the election and tip it to Bush
3. They rallied their base to shut down the vote re-count early: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot
4. Bush’s brother Jeb was the governor of the state and Secretary of State Katherine Harris was cochair of Bush’s Florida campaign

Had they not demonized Gore for his views, and had they not fed the American people with lies about climate change, Gore probably would have won. (The vote was decided by about 0.01%)

With that, there would have been a very different focus on climate change. It would likely have become woven into our culture - but the GOP wouldn't have it. They continue today claiming that Green = (Red) Communism. They continue to argue against the science (of almost everything). This is not a case of "discuss both sides". Like Evolution, Climate Science is settled and not up for debate. Yet, THEY would have you believe whether or not it's up for debate, it's up for debate because they feel like it.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Miles in post #15

Of the 538 electoral votes, currently the Dems have 247 and the Reps 235, with 56 up for grabs. So the question to ask yourself is, with 270 electoral votes needed to win and considering the mess Trump and GOP continue to make of the party, how difficult is it going for the Democrats to be to pick up the needed extra 23 votes to win verses the Reps 35? As I see it the Democratic win will be a breeze.

Even though it's looking like 45 may be out of our hair soon, never underestimate the Dems' talent for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. And even when they have won, what have they given us? A minimum wage hike? Affordable health care? Climate action? Taxes on the rich? College debt relief (not until the Supreme Court rules on it, at least, and how's that likely to go?)? And remember----the Dems have their own collection of corporate donors.....

The two-party system is a sham. Expecting the Democrats to save us from the Republicans is like expecting Bonnie to save us from Clyde.

[The Barbarian]

Yeah, DeSantis seems to be as corrupt and amoral as Trump, but he's somewhat more competent.

[The Barbarian]

Have you seen the way DeSantis is running Florida?
[/quote]

If DeSantis had been running America during the pandemic, we'd have had another half-million deaths.

[Clownboat]

I wonder, if a person has marked you as "Them" - and they've made a point to eradicate you - is that person still an "Us" to you?

Eradicate me!?! This is the arguing from emotion I have been talking about.
Do you feel that there are those out to eradicate you? If so, make them known and I'll stand and fight with you to avoid your eradication.

Do you simply not believe there are Us's and Them's,

This is not accurate of me.

or that you don't like the general idea.

That would depend. Take an alien invasion for example. I would jump on the 'Us' team real quick most likely.
'Us' religious people vs 'Them' atheists is the type I refer to when I talk about cult thinking. That I don't like in general.

I have to wonder what you think the government and politics is for?

This is a true statement.

<snipped the rest as no questions were posed>
Thank you for forming a point though and avoiding slander.