Pharisees' request for a sign from the Messiah

[rstrats]

When responding to the Pharisees' request for a sign, why do you suppose the Messiah made the specific point that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 days and 3 nights?

[The Nice Centurion]

Glorious New body able to walk through Walls? And than whereto did old body disappear?

This Video looks interesting . Didnt wach it yet though.

[rstrats]

Glorious New body able to walk through Walls? And than whereto did old body disappear?

This Video looks interesting . Didnt wach it yet though.

The video has nothing to do with this topic.

[TRANSPONDER]

It does, sorta. and he is absolutely right. In Matthew, Jesus was already gone, before the women approached at dawn. We don't know when, but Jesus did not walk out of the tomb when the angel rolled away the stone.

Now of course, I don't credit Matthew's version; it is fantastic and nothing like the others. But that is the problem - none of them are like the others, which to me is as clear - Jesus already being thought of as having gone before the women arrived.

Let's look at the timeline: Friday, Crucifixion, Jesus is popped in the tomb around evening. It has to be late because getting the body down before the Sabbath was an issue.
Saturday from twilight to dawn. Saturday, Sabbath. Possibly Jesus rises. Luke had him tell the penitent robber they will both be in paradise before evening. In any case, Jesus is gone without the tomb being opened. He can walk through the solid rock, or possibly, he (or someone else) moves the rock door and closes it after Jesus has risen. Not even a full day in the tomb has passed.

Saturday daylight and on the Sabbath, nothing can be done no spices bought or prepared. Though Arimathea might have told the women the spices were in the tomb already, according to John. Though they'd need to take mixing oil (and bowls) in that case. But that morning is when one would expect the Priests to consider getting a Roman guard or permission from Pilate to post their own. Remember, Matthew says the guard reported to the priests, not to Pilate.
Twilight, Sunday, first day of the week and now the women can prepare spices, if the need to. Supposedly the tomb guard have watched the closed door all day, whether Jesus has walked through it or not.

All that night to dawn the guard are there and the door isn't opened, nor is Jesus seen. One way or another he's gone before the women approach the tomb.

Half way through Sunday , at dawn is when the action happens. But clearly whether Friday, Saturday or Sunday, Jesus is already gone and to door is either opened before the dawn or is opened At dawn as per Matthew. But Matthew is not like the other versions and no matter what the believers protest i do not believe a word of it. Not only is it fantastical, it contradicts the other accounts. Totally.

But the point is, apart from it was on the third day, yes, one could say so, but no way was it three days - not even two full days.

So two things, supposing Matthew is dismissed and the evidence given full weight - so far as John is concerned, there was no angel to explain the empty tomb. It was open, Jesus was gone, and if anyone knew where, they hadn't told the women. Like the whole problem with the resurrections (beyond Jesus wasn't in the tomb three days, but one could claim 'on the Third day') none of them agree; they are like witnesses who can't agree their stories and contradict each other on the stand. They have made their stories up to fit the claim of the empty tomb meaning that Jesus had risen.

I have raised doubts even about the empty tomb- story or Claim. but let's concede that is agreed by all four. Three of them say the tomb was open and Jesus was gone before the women arrive. The implication is clear (if we dismiss Matthew, as we ought, including his invented tomb -guard), someone had opened that door to get in or to let Jesus out. That means, he couldn't walk through walls. and Matthew's mention of the claim common in his day that 'the disciples took the body' is as good an explanation as a resurrection, and does not require a miracle.

The Jonah thing. Three days is OT and implies that is why three days (or the third day, at least) is imposed on the resurrection - claim. The Talpiot tomb carved Jonah - fish implies that the Jonah story was a symbol of resurrection (which Pharisees believed) before Jesus was even born. And of course that it why Jesus has to explain it, as though he needed to prophecy resurrection to the Pharisees. No, it's Matthew giving the teaching- claim to the Christians who will read it.

P.s Luke 11. 29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgement with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
32 The men of Nineveh shall rise up in the judgement with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. This in context is to the people not just Pharisees and is when he sets out for Jerusalem for last time.

Matthew 12 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgement with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Matthew 16. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Jesus then left them and went away.

The context is different. Matthew apparently adds the explanation of the Jonah symbolism. That is it only on Matthew and Luke and in different contexts tell us that yet again we have 'Q' material.

It alkso occurs to me that this is another occasion when Jesus shown that knowledge is kept from him. God would know that the nonsense of Nineveh repenting wasn't true.When did Nineveh, the capital of the Assyrian empire, ever repent its' ways? But like Noah and Adam, Jesus either teaches what he doesn't know is not true, or he teaches what he knows isn't true as a teaching -point.

Or rather, I suggests, the writers if the gospels do, clearly, to anyone who cares about evidence more than Biblefaith.

[rstrats]

It does, sorta.

I don't see how. I don't see where the video explains why 3 days and 3 nights (and not some other time frame) is important for the resurrection prophecy for the scribes and Pharisees.

[TRANSPONDER]

It does, sorta.

I don't see how. I don't see where the video explains why 3 days and 3 nights (and not some other time frame) is important for the resurrection prophecy for the scribes and Pharisees.

Maybe it does or maybe it doesn't, but it is utterly clear what is going on, Jesus (in Matthew and Luke's "Q" borrowings, but not in Mark) is using the Jonah in the fish story as a prophecy of his own death and resurrection (or I'd argue the Christian writers were doing it). Now Jonah might have already been a Pharisee symbol of resurrection, or it might not. I don't want to think that the Talpiot tomb graffiti was a fake. But the three days in the Jonah story becomes the need for the three days time scale, even though it isn't three days, but short of two, though it can be sorta spread over Friday to Sunday, like butter scraped over too much bread.

[rstrats]

[quote=TRANSPONDER Maybe it does or maybe it doesn't...

No maybe about it - it doesn't.

But the three days [and three nights] in the Jonah story becomes the need for the three days [and three nights] time scale...

But why? Was there a specific reason for that length of time which was apparently to be used as a prophecy for the resurrection or was it just an arbitrary number? The video doesn't say.

[TRANSPONDER]

[quote=TRANSPONDER Maybe it does or maybe it doesn't...

No maybe about it - it doesn't.

But the three days [and three nights] in the Jonah story becomes the need for the three days [and three nights] time scale...

But why? Was there a specific reason for that length of time which was apparently to be used as a prophecy for the resurrection or was it just an arbitrary number? The video doesn't say.

I don't know either. It would be wrong of the video to give an answer it doesn't have. I suspect 'three' is a number that myth -makers rather like, but Bible expert may come up with a Biblical reason. To me the only relevance is that it isn't actualyt three days in hours but it is - just - touching on three days. Friday to Sunday, and the connection to Jonah is interesting and that pair of passages in Matthew and Luke are Bible - writers having Jesus dropping prophecies about his resurrection..

Which is a bit of a hoot when Jesus gets cold feet at Gethsemane.

"Look, I changed my mind about all this - can't we do it another way?"

"Like what?"

"Well just forgive everybody."

"What about all those prophecies you made about rising from the dead?"

"They'll find a way to explain it away."

[bjs1]

When responding to the Pharisees' request for a sign, why do you suppose the Messiah made the specific point that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 days and 3 nights?

In ancient Israel dying on Friday before sundown and rising Sunday early morning would have been three days and three nights.

A day ends (and the next day begins) at sundown. Jesus died during the day on Friday – that is day/night 1. He was dead when the sun went down on Friday, so that was day/night 2. He was still dead when the sun went down on Saturday, brings us into day/night 3.

I understand that is not how modern Americans keep track of time. Jesus died at 3:00 PM on Friday and rose sometime before 6:30 AM on Sunday. That’s 51 ½ hours, and we would probably round that down to 2 days and 2 nights.

Both ways of keeping track of time are valid. They are just different.

Jesus said he would be in the earth 3 days and 3 nights because, in the Gospels, that is how long he was in the earth according to the way people kept track of time in that culture.

[TRANSPONDER]

I don't see that helps very much. We know that last knockings, Friday to Dawn Sunday is over three days, though not three full days of 24 hours. The reckoning from evening to Evening is understood and doesn't rally affect matters, only what the 'hours' were in relation to the western clock.

The question is, why three days at all, either in prophecy or the Gospel record? I think it is based on the Jonah story.

Now. Pharisee resurrection might have used Jonah as a symbol of resurrection, but the three days doesn't seem to mean anything. The Messiah would come down, the graves would open and the people would come out, resurrected to be judged. There's no Three Days' involved. I suspect that the writers latched onto the Jonah symbolism as a sort of prophecy of Jesus' resurrection and three days became part of the story.

[bjs1]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #19]

I doubt there is an answer to “why was it three days.” That's just what happened.

In context the passage, found in post 4, does not appear to use Jonah as a prophesy. Jesus seemed to reference Jonah because of the similar time frame, but nothing in his words suggests that Jonah’s experience was prophetic in that sense.

There is nothing new about seeing connections between the OT and the life of Christ that probably aren’t there. The church fathers did it all the time. I don’t think that I can prove it wrong, but it strikes me as nothing more than an interesting coincidence that Jonah’s and Jesus’ experiences both lasted three days. The text does not seem to treat this as anything more than a coincidence.