Understanding the Christian View of Trans People

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Understanding the Christian View of Trans People

Post #1

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I've enjoyed many of the X-Men movies and one character who I particularly thought was interesting was Kitty Pryde played by Ellen Page.



However, I was completely surprised when I found out that Ellen transitioned into Elliot Page fairly recently in the year 2020. Also, I recently read an article about his past gender dysphoria.
Thinking back to when he was much younger, prior to coming out as transgender, the 36-year-old actor recalled the discomfort that came with his changing body. “My body started to change and clothes sat on me differently,” Page added. “And all of that just was, really was the beginning of really sort of disconnecting from myself and feeling a degree of discomfort that was very erosive and damaging.

Elliot Page on How His Acting Career Impacted His Gender Dysphoria
Gender Dysphoria

Gender dysphoria is the feeling of distress or discomfort because of the difference between a person’s gender (assigned at birth) and their gender identity. This applies to both males who are assigned a female gender at birth and females who were assigned the male gender at birth. People with gender dysphoria are normally transgender...

Dysphoria vs. Dysmorphia
Also, I had always wondered about this and wanted to ask Christians and JWs about this topic. Plus, years ago when I Bible studied with JWs and even went to some of their meetings at one of their Kingdom Halls, I remember seeing a man dressed up as a woman in the audience and standing up and signing JW Kingdom songs along with the rest of JWs, but I thought to myself that he or she must really be trying to change coming to the Kingdom Hall dressed like that.

Therefore, I wanted to ask Christians and JWs: Do trans members ever really change and stop being trans? Also, I am aware of the Bible verses that Christians and JWs use to condemn trans people such as Deuteronomy 22:5, 1 Corinthians 11:14–15, and 1 Corinthians 6:9 where Young's Literal Translation renders that verse as:
have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,
where the word "effeminate" is translated from the Greek word μαλακοὶ (malakoi), which means, "(a) soft, (b) of persons: soft, delicate, effeminate. Of uncertain affinity; soft." And I guess it's vice versa for masculine women. However, I would like to know other than the Bible saying don't be like this or don't be like that, do Christians or JWs ever wonder about why a person has cross gender identification in the first place? Because it's difficult for me to imagine that a little child who feels this way is being sinister and is trying to sin against God. Because to me, there always seemed to be a lot more to it such as how their brains function. Plus, it seem as if they're being blamed for something that they have no control over:
Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to findings to be presented in Barcelona, at the European Society of Endocrinology annual meeting, ECE 2018. These findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool for earlier identification of transgenderism in young people.

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

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Re: Understanding the Christian View of Trans People

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Skeptical wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:01 am ....Do trans members ever really change and stop being trans?...
Stories of detransitioning people seem to suggest that person can stop being trans.
Skeptical wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:01 am...However, I would like to know other than the Bible saying don't be like this or don't be like that, do Christians or JWs ever wonder about why a person has cross gender identification in the first place?....
I didn't wonder it before you asked it. Maybe one reason is that they think there is something better in the opposite gender and they think they must change to have that same. Or there is something they don't like in their gender and therefore they want to change. When person understands the reason, I believe it is then also possible to "stop being trans", if the person understands it is not a good reason.

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Re: Understanding the Christian View of Trans People

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

Skeptical wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:01 amDo trans members ever really change and stop being trans?
I don't know if someone can "stop being trans" in the sense of no longer having the feelings of discord with their bodies. That is not a requirement to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses. All that is required is a person live in accord with bible standards. My understanding is if someone wishes to be baptised as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses they will have to live and dress in line with their biological sex.
I do not know if anyone that has fully transitioned that has made the decision to become one of Jehovahs Witnesses but I do remember reading the lifestyle of MAURÍCIO ARAÚJO who I suppose would today be described as TRANS: “They Were Very Kind to Me.”​: The Bible Changes Lives https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&do ... are&par=17
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Understanding the Christian View of Trans People

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

DOES THE BIBLE CONDEMN MEN MERELY FOR HAVING EFFEMINATE TRAITS ?

1 CORINTHIANS 6:9 NWT


Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom?+ Do not be misled.* Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality
men who submit to homosexual acts men who practice homosexuality: The Greek text here uses two different words. The first word (Greek, ma·la·kosʹ) has the basic meaning of “soft” (compare Lu 7:25), but in this context, it apparently refers to males who assume the passive role in a homosexual relationship, the effeminate one. Thus, it has been rendered men who submit to homosexual acts. The second word (Greek, ar·se·no·koiʹtes), with the literal meaning “men who lie with men,” also occurs at 1Ti 1:10. It apparently refers to men who assume the active role in homosexual activity. Therefore, it has been translated men who practice homosexuality or, alternatively, “men who have sex with men.” By specifically mentioning the passive and active roles, Paul made it clear that God disapproves of all homosexual acts.
So scripture does not condemn men for their sexual attraction to members of the same biological sex or merely for having what is generally considered more "effeminate" mannerisms or qualities but for voluntarily engaging in sexual activities with members of the same biological sex.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:19 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Understanding the Christian View of Trans People

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Skeptical wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:01 am...

...[Do]JWs ever wonder about why a person has cross gender identification in the first place? ...
I do; I'm not a doctor or a psychiatrist but I believe it basically comes from genetics or environment or a combination of both. I think there is little doubt brain function plays a part, it plays a part in all human behaviour. The concensus seems to be out to what degree environment influences such people but I don't think it can be entirely dismissed given the rise in numbers of people self identifying as "trans" over recent years.





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Re: Understanding the Christian View of Trans People

Post #6

Post by Skeptical »

1213 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:13 am
Skeptical wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:01 am ....Do trans members ever really change and stop being trans?...
Stories of detransitioning people seem to suggest that person can stop being trans.
Well, I supposed so, if that is true.
1213 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:13 am
Skeptical wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:01 am...However, I would like to know other than the Bible saying don't be like this or don't be like that, do Christians or JWs ever wonder about why a person has cross gender identification in the first place?....
I didn't wonder it before you asked it. Maybe one reason is that they think there is something better in the opposite gender and they think they must change to have that same. Or there is something they don't like in their gender and therefore they want to change. When person understands the reason, I believe it is then also possible to "stop being trans", if the person understands it is not a good reason.
I don't know if you read any of the quotes that I provided in the OP or clicked on any of the links for more information, however, from what I read, there's really not a lot of 'thinking' involved. Therefore, I prefer to go the source and listen to what these people are saying rather than the opinion of someone who doesn't know anything about it. But thanks for answering.

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Re: Understanding the Christian View of Trans People

Post #7

Post by Skeptical »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 2:43 pm
Skeptical wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:01 amDo trans members ever really change and stop being trans?
I don't know if someone can "stop being trans" in the sense of no longer having the feelings of discord with their bodies. That is not a requirement to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses. All that is required is a person live in accord with bible standards. My understanding is if someone wishes to be baptised as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses they will have to live and dress in line with their biological sex.
I do not know if anyone that has fully transitioned that has made the decision to become one of Jehovahs Witnesses but I do remember reading the lifestyle of MAURÍCIO ARAÚJO who I suppose would today be described as TRANS: “They Were Very Kind to Me.”​: The Bible Changes Lives https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&do ... are&par=17
I didn't want to spend too much time reading the entire article, however, I didn't see anywhere in the article where it said that MAURÍCIO ARAÚJO was a trans person. Unless I missed something.

Although, I did see in the second paragraph where it said:
My father died while my mother was expecting me. As a young boy, I dressed in my mother’s clothes while she was out. I adopted feminine mannerisms, and people started to view me as gay. In time, I began having sex with other boys and men.
However, I wouldn't quite view that as trans, but homosexual.

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Re: Understanding the Christian View of Trans People

Post #8

Post by Skeptical »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 2:58 pm DOES THE BIBLE CONDEMN MEN MERELY FOR HAVING EFFEMINATE TRAITS ?

1 CORINTHIANS 6:9 NWT


Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom?+ Do not be misled.* Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality
men who submit to homosexual acts men who practice homosexuality: The Greek text here uses two different words. The first word (Greek, ma·la·kosʹ) has the basic meaning of “soft” (compare Lu 7:25), but in this context, it apparently refers to males who assume the passive role in a homosexual relationship, the effeminate one. Thus, it has been rendered men who submit to homosexual acts. The second word (Greek, ar·se·no·koiʹtes), with the literal meaning “men who lie with men,” also occurs at 1Ti 1:10. It apparently refers to men who assume the active role in homosexual activity. Therefore, it has been translated men who practice homosexuality or, alternatively, “men who have sex with men.” By specifically mentioning the passive and active roles, Paul made it clear that God disapproves of all homosexual acts.
Okay, but I don't understand where the interpreter jumps to "but in this context, it apparently refers to males who assume the passive role in a homosexual relationship, the effeminate one." Because wouldn't that make the latter part of verse 9, "men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality," a bit redundant?
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 2:58 pm So scripture does not condemn men for their sexual attraction to members of the same biological sex or merely for having what is generally considered more "effeminate" mannerisms or qualities but for voluntarily engaging in sexual activities with members of the same biological sex.
Well, that's not what I am seeing. Plus, what Jesus said at Matthew 5:28 kind of trumps the interpretation that you gave.

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Re: Understanding the Christian View of Trans People

Post #9

Post by Skeptical »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:06 pm
Skeptical wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:01 am...

...[Do]JWs ever wonder about why a person has cross gender identification in the first place? ...
I do; I'm not a doctor or a psychiatrist but I believe it basically comes from genetics or environment or a combination of both. I think there is little doubt brain function plays a part, it plays a part in all human behaviour. The concensus seems to be out to what degree environment influences such people but I don't think it can be entirely dismissed given the rise in numbers of people self identifying as "trans" over recent years.





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HOMOSEXUALITY, HOMOPHOBIA and ...BIBLICAL PROHIBITIONS
But wouldn't the rise in numbers of people self identifying as "trans" over recent years be mainly because of changing laws and less fear and terror among LGBTQ individuals?
Are people newly LGBTQ, or is it just safer to say so?

The rising numbers raise the question of whether more identification reflects more LGBTQ people – or just more people willing to self-identify.

David said he leans toward the latter, citing pro-equality legislation as a driver of the increase.

“Several decades ago, LGBTQ identity and conduct were illegal in several states,” he said. “As we remove the vestiges of bias and discrimination from our laws, we see more LGBTQ people come out of the shadows.”

NEW YORK, NEW YORK - JUNE 28: Rainbow flags are seen in Rockefeller Center in honor of the 50th anniversary of the first gay pride march on June 28, 2020 in New York City. Due to the ongoing coronavirus pandemic, this year's Pride march had to be canceled over health concerns. The annual event, which sees millions of attendees, marks its 50th anniversary since the first march following the Stonewall Inn riots. (Photo by Noam Galai/Getty Images)
70% of Americans support same-sex marriage -- a new high -- a new survey finds
Leading the migration from the “shadows” is Gen Z – young adults aged 18 to 23 – which, in the poll, accounted for 15.9% of LGBTQ American adults.

Young people, David said, weren’t around during the years when being LGBTQ was criminal. And they’re able to view issues of identity in a different, less fearful way.

“They’re not looking at sexuality and gender identity through a lens of fear and stigma,” he said. “Many of them are looking at gender identity and sexual orientation as just a factor in what makes them who they are.”
Therefore, from the above and from what I know about history, it seems like they were always there, but not as visible.

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Re: Understanding the Christian View of Trans People

Post #10

Post by JehovahsWitness »

DOES MATTHEW 5:28 MEAN HOMOSEXUALS ARE CONDEMNED FOR THEIR DESIRES?

No. Jesus was highlighting that all sin starts with unwholesome desires and inevitably leads to actions if we do not make a constant effort to fight them.
MATTHEW 5 :28

But I say to you that everyone who keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart
The verb in the original language was witten in the continuous form, so Jesus does not say that that anyone that looks at a woman (person) would be condemned but rather that anyone that keeps looking. The point being we may not be able to control our initial reaction (or orientation) but we can avoid harbouring and nurturing wrong desires. (compare verses 29, 30). Whether homosexual or heterosexual, a Christian must struggle against lecherous thoughts but they are not condemned unless they give up that fight.

Unlike Jesus' words above, the context of Paul's words were not about the origins of sin but rather what measures Christians were authorised to take vi-a-vis each other. The subject is introduced in the context of lawsuits against fellow Christians. One does not go to court because of someone's feelings about us but because of their actions.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:07 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Romans 14:8

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